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Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Capitalism certainly has its downsides, but since I'm already rolling my eyes at the "economic inequality is a crime" part, I think it's safe to say that your thoughtful post is enough of a synopsis to not make want to read the article.
 
I’ve never really cared for his work, and this has got to be one of the worst pieces he’s written. He’s taking extreme postmodern ideology, and than just crudely forced the magic player base to confirm to it. If he had stuck with some of the more basic points (pay to win game design is bad), that were true, he would have been fine. However, he goes off the deep end in a need to prententiously entwine two things he dislikes: magic and capitalism. I suppose if you’re naive enough to think that capitalism created inequality, you hated economic inequality in magic, and really wanted to write a forced hate scred about economic models under the guise of game commentary, writing a weird piece like this would make sense.

i wasn't gonna reply but fuck it, you're parroting jordan peterson and i can't stand for this

you imply that you've been following postmodern and neo-marxist stuff for a decade but I think you're tilting at windmills, dude. Obviously I respect you and your intellect and I would hope that you'll give this post a fair shake etc etc as I am trying 2 do with yours.

I really really don't want to do a point-by-point rebuttal (does anyone outside of formal debate like these?) to your section-based breakdown but it's hard not to respond to some of the stuff you're saying so I will try to focus on the areas where I disagree with you most strongly. I'm not a marxian economist but I majored in economics in university and I'm more sympathetic to marxian critiques than I am to New Keynesianism. I'm also a socialist IRL. I think that you're pretty knowledgeable about econ so I won't speak down to you. this is a lot of preamble on what I intend to be a short post but I really want to demonstrate that I'm engaging with you in good faith!

--------

I have a couple substantive points against your argument.
1) I think that your reference frame is so different from mine, vis a vis 'extreme postmodern ideology'. To me 'extreme postmodern ideology' is, uh, the worst parts of what gets called "choice feminism", or sometimes "selfie feminism" - the idea that simply because one chooses an action it isn't harmful or part of a greater context. You see choice feminism come up in stuff like the abortion debates, but also (odiously) in the dispatches of the ultra-rich and complicit (Gwyneth Paltrow's GOOP, Lena Dunham's "Lenny Letter"), where it's used to argue that our individual choices come from within ourselves and not from societal brainwashing. I don't think a basic analysis of Magic's problems vis a vis financial barriers to entry is extreme, and I'm kind of intrigued that you do.

2) Much like those choice feminists, you elide the social contexts and pressures that drive our actions, even the ones we believe we make of our own free wills. The guy who spends $5K foiling out his EDH deck IS a horrifying thought, and he's doing it because he knows people with foiled or partially foiled EDH decks. Obviously all personal discretionary spending is on a sliding scale of immorality, and it's not exactly the worst capitalism has to offer, but conspicuous consumption should make anti-capitalists uncomfortable. And yet Jesse raises an interesting point: these people performing conspicuous consumption on this facet of their life really don't seem to do it elsewhere - where are the gratuitous-kanji streetwear outfits, the nice cars, the attention to personal grooming?

3) The global mechanisms of capital are the Great Satan. They centralize the planet's wealth in the hands of the already wealthy and are wantonly cruel to the poor.

4) There *is* a way to keep Magic but not keep the financial barriers to entry, and every time someone proxies up a cube at Kinko's they're doing anticapitalist praxis within the sphere of collectible card games. It's probably too late for Magic to think about becoming a living card game, but those are also a more anti-capital version of the genre pioneered by Magic nearly 25 years ago. You say that "[t]he ideological solution would be to just destory magic itself, or change it so fundimentally as to have effectively made the game that everyone loves unrecognizable", but that's simply not true. If we gave up on this notion that only Magic cards printed by Wizards of the Coast are 'real' game pieces, Magic would become cheaper, democratized, and have more fun tournaments, all in one fell swoop. It's a remarkably simple solution that would be almost universally accepted by players if it weren't for capitalist brainwashing. Drafting a Cube, too, dispels some of the uglier meta-game problems that the secondary market creates.

5) You say "And of course, wizards is reduced to the caricature of the monopoly millionare, taking rent money from [...] EDH players that just want to bling out their decks. It says something about the strength of his argumet, when he has to resort to distortions and strawmanning to get it across." And yet, how is this a distortion? Wizards literally does extract rents from EDH players, and the rest of us besides. This is no strawman. Those EDH players are, by and large, not multi-millionaires. They budget for their purchases out of their discretionary funds. THIS ITSELF is the exploitation, the collection of players' money beyond operating costs. The players can choose to foil out their EDH decks if they like, out of their own volition, but that desire has been informed, sculpted, and inculcated by Wizards' marketing. As Jesse points out, the actions of secondary-market devotees are analogous to those of stock traders. This is capitalist indoctrination of a way to navigate the barriers to entry imposed by capitalism. My example in point 4 is an anticapitalist way to navigate the barriers to entry imposed by capitalism. That players overwhelmingly believe this stock traderism is smart or prudent, but do not overwhelmingly believe that third-party cards are a viable answer for casual play, is commodity fetishism, pure and simple.

6) You'd be hard-pressed to find an anticapitalist who wants to remove fun from a post-revolutionary world. Joy, artistic expression, and fun may be greater personal motivators in an anticapitalist system than they are at present, when the working class are freed from the exploitation of their excess labour which takes undue time away from their lives. The revolution isn't coming any time soon but I just wanted to note that personal discretionary spending of one's time and income is not anathema to an anticapitalist world. Magic would still exist, and maybe people who aren't white men in the West would play it.

Your friend,
saf

PS: where do you live that universities have any Marxists on staff at all, let alone more than a handful of leftist profs? Sounds nice.
 
For what it's worth, I liked the article. I don't think the author's point is even to deride Capitalism as a whole, but rather demonstrate how the economic side detracts from the real game in various (and sometimes indirect) ways. I wouldn't play Cube if the standard protocol was to pay the host a representative fraction of the cube's cost and then keep the drafted cards instead of returning them to the pool at the end, even though both models would be fair.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
So... Why is the idea of someone spending $5K foiling out an EDH deck horrifying? Why is it obvious that all personal discretionary spending is on a sliding scale of immorality? I'm not well versed in either side of the pro- or anti-capitalist debate, but to me that sounds like an extreme thing to say, and not at all obvious. What is obvious to me is that poverty is undesirable, but this is not necessarily an invention of capitalism. Poverty existed way before capitalism was invented after all. Now, capitalism itself certainly isn't an antidote to poverty, don't get me wrong, but when you combine it with social security as happens in the Netherlands, I think you've got a system that, while not perfect, is the best we've ever had.

And after typing that, I read a bit on Wikipedia and found this:
Socialists maintain that although capitalism is superior to all previously existing economic systems (such as feudalism or slavery), the contradiction between class interests will only be resolved by advancing into a completely new social system of production and distribution in which all persons have an equal relationship to the means of production
This sums up my feeling surprisingly well.

Anyway, back to my questions at the start, why is someone spending money on something personal, something that makes them happy (and doesn't harm others) immoral or horrifying? Maybe capitalism has "brainwashed" me, but as long as they can afford it, what's the problem? For many, foiling out their EDH deck is a slow journey of acquiring cards one by one, culminating in a joyful and proud moment when they finish that long process. I personally don't care for foils, and rather spend that money on a multitude of commander decks and/or my cube, but to each their own!
 

James Stevenson

Steamflogger Boss
Staff member
Two things

1. I won a bet. But I don’t think I’m getting paid:
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums...789498-packaging-for-dominaria-and-m19?page=3
He was very big in his mouth but he has been quiet ever since the result of the bet became public.

2. We might be getting a new member soon :) One I have always respected for his custom card skills.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/custom-card-creation/792284-custom-cube-wip

Foil As Foretold is the perfect prize for a bet.
 
So... Why is the idea of someone spending $5K foiling out an EDH deck horrifying? Why is it obvious that all personal discretionary spending is on a sliding scale of immorality?

I don't have much in the way of "official" economic training, and I don't presume to speak for safra here, but from my point of view it's that capitalist society rewards and/or motivates someone to spend money on something with minimal practical benefit, and indeed holds that individual in higher esteem based on their capability to do this (or there is the potential for this); and at the same time there are people who never had $5K in their life and are actively suffering, and are held in lower esteem (or potential exists). The primary driver of their $5K decision might even be this pursuit of social standing. Note that this is not necessarily personal immorality either, but systematic immorality.

Example: USA produces more than enough food to adequately feed the country (and beyond), but fails to do so, and it is socially correct for individuals to waste food based on the way the food system is arranged. Example: grocery stores throwing food out because it expires before they can sell it rather than giving the food to, say, shelters before it goes bad so they can use it to cook meals for the needy. Systematic immorality.

Rewarding/esteeming capital potential and capability over societal altruism
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I just wanted to chime in and say thanks for background here safra and grillo, I'm learning a lot here.

Also, what thread should I throw the side discussion of "if I had to draft m25 or innistrad today, I'd draft m25" in?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
you imply that you've been following postmodern and neo-marxist stuff for a decade but I think you're tilting at windmills, dude. Obviously I respect you and your intellect and I would hope that you'll give this post a fair shake etc etc as I am trying 2 do with yours.

First off, I want you to replay. I know you, and I know you're a reasonable person If we can't discuss important things, whats the point of being able to have discussions?

I've been an active participant in postmodern thought since 2006, when I first read the Killing of History by Keith Windschuttle, and it helped to start make sense of the what was going on around me. It was a lot of the same nastiness (though things had gotten only more exteme) that I encountered in law school during 2010-2013. The academic enviorment is filled with it, and if you want lived experiences I would be happy to share, though they are hardly pleasent.

If you want to attack my credability, I would suggest thats a poor route to go on this topic. I do like Peterson--he's done a tremendous service articulating in a clear concise manner some of the dangers that this ideology presents to society. He's also absolutely correct about the dangers of tribalism, and political polarization. Me not lashing out in a defensive reactionary manner is largely due to his emphasis on treating people we disagree with decently, because the nature of any real genuine exchange can involve making someone uncomfortable. I don't want to lie to you about who I am or what I think, and I would never want you to have to lie about who you are and what you think. I think its great that you responded.

Though I'm not sure the meaningful extent that you actually disagree with him (or I). I'll give marx his due, for instance--much of his criticisms about capitalism were true, which gets you through the door--its just entire rest of the philosophy thats riddled with problems. Postmodernism, at the start, was a perfectly valid and probably necessary response to the Western colonialism that had started two world wars, and brought the world to the brink of armageddon. Certainly, I won't deny that income inequality is a huge problem. Its probably the issue of the age, though leftists insisting on revamping the same old tired ideas from a century ago, that killed millions of people, and calling it progress is not good.

Though you seem drawn more towards moderation anyways (which is good), and recognize the dangers of extremism. And thats really all I can ask.

However, I will take a moment to roll my eyes at this constant assertion from some magic players that WOTC is this purely exploitive corporate entity. I mean really, what are even comparing it with? If you want to talk about shitty game companies I would be happy to oblige, and WOTC would just be nowhere in that discussion, despite all its flaws. Lets be fair to the company.

But there is at least a decent, and on-point topic we could untangle.

There *is* a way to keep Magic but not keep the financial barriers to entry, and every time someone proxies up a cube at Kinko's they're doing anticapitalist praxis within the sphere of collectible card games. It's probably too late for Magic to think about becoming a living card game, but those are also a more anti-capital version of the genre pioneered by Magic nearly 25 years ago. You say that "[t]he ideological solution would be to just destory magic itself, or change it so fundimentally as to have effectively made the game that everyone loves unrecognizable", but that's simply not true. If we gave up on this notion that only Magic cards printed by Wizards of the Coast are 'real' game pieces, Magic would become cheaper, democratized, and have more fun tournaments, all in one fell swoop. It's a remarkably simple solution that would be almost universally accepted by players if it weren't for capitalist brainwashing. Drafting a Cube, too, dispels some of the uglier meta-game problems that the secondary market creates.

Yes, this was one of the two possible solutions that he hinted at. The first was that it become free to play like league of legends, but he didn't address the obvious difference between a digital platform and a physical one with print costs and distribution costs. Its also worth discussing the assumption that ftp automatically results in a fun, or equivalent fun experience to a game involving an up front cost (this has not been my experience).

The other was the sort of "disrupt the system" by just having everyone print their own proxies or by cube. First, there are concerns over the practice putting wizards out of business, and us lossing the talent and infrastructure that enables the game's current existance (which may or may not be able to be replaced adequately by non-professional designers--my experiences with cube design does not make me confident they would be), its worth noting that we're again putting the blame on "captalist brainwashing" rather than anything deeper.

I have been pushing cheap budget formats and bouncelands as an alternative to shock/fetchlands for years at this point, as well as the concept of reduced power level, which does result in better games. The community as a whole is still largely unchanged since I came on the board. A few years ago, I thought this was entirely due to the marketing push (the brainwashing you alluded to) from WOTC, but more and more that seems unlikely to me. Only so much time can pass, with people having the readily available alternative, and not embracing it, before you have to consider the possibility that they authentically don't want the readily available alternative.

And this is kind of the problem--the author's issue is fundimentally with human behavior, and he assumes that what he considers negative behavior, is purely the result of a capitalistic system. What happens if the system were to go away, but the same behavior were to continue? What do you do than? Well, we have a long ugly history from the 20th century of exactly that happening.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I still think the primary message of the article was that, before you play the game of Magic, you have to first play the game of Magic finances. And that this "Magic Finances" game infiltrates your mindset in many ways.

One of my motives to start cubing was to get away from the churn of exchanging cards to always have a relevant Standard deck. I just wanted to play.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I think the idea that the pieces of the game are, or should be, worth something in and of themselves, and that this is something accepted by many players when perhaps it shouldn't be is a valid point.

On that point, its a fair question to ask when a game is made better by telling its players that they can't use a certain game mechanic due to entirely non-game factors.

After thinking about this I'm starting to come to the depressing conclusion that if Magic never existed my life would probably be better.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think the idea that the pieces of the game are, or should be, worth something in and of themselves, and that this is something accepted by many players when perhaps it shouldn't be is a valid point.


Yeah, but thats just so miserably nihilistic to me, especially if you've ever been on the design end of things. Its easy to look at a cube and not see the tremendous time and care, as well as sentimental value that it represents. As frustrating as it might be to have market valuation not match up with what you personally think something should be worth, the idea of giving up on the very idea that things should have inherient value sounds like the root of an existential crisis.

But I suppose that makes sense giving the broader context of the author (as well as the philosophy). Jessie (I think his name is) always sound depressed, angry, and resentful in his pieces. And they've only gotten more resentful and disdainful towards WOTC, the broader magic community, and the world in general as the years have gone by. Not a good place to be.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
After thinking about this I'm starting to come to the depressing conclusion that if Magic never existed my life would probably be better.
Really? What qualities does Magic possess that it actively makes peoples lives worse then? And which of those qualities can really be attributed to Magic, and wouldn't exist (in some other form) if Magic didn't exist?
 
I had a long and interesting conversation with a non-Magic-playing friend (who plays Hearthstone) about Magic's draft formats tonight. I took a quick edit, but it's mostly chat transcript. I know, I know, but I think I got an interesting blog post out of it.

https://mtgsharzad.tumblr.com/post/173596735843/the-5-best-modern-draft-formats
Man, I should've drafted A25. M13 deserves a place on this list somewhere. It's easily the best core set draft experience ever.

Also, I'm going to get flogged for this, but I think RTR is better than original RAV if you ignore Pack Rat.
 
Man, I should've drafted A25. M13 deserves a place on this list somewhere. It's easily the best core set draft experience ever.

Also, I'm going to get flogged for this, but I think RTR is better than original RAV if you ignore Pack Rat.

I really enjoyed M13, a lot. Definitely the best core set I've drafted. I got a comment elsewhere that I overlooked 3x Kaladesh but I didn't get to play Kaladesh so sorry, you get what I know.
 
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