CML's Cube (405, polychromatic)

CML

Contributor
right or the legacy roshambo viz. combo > aggro > control. i'm struggling to figure out why the midrange decks are so sensitive to amount of sweepers and little else and the best analogue i can come up with is the current standard, where the mid-rangiest deck of all time, junk rites gets crushed by curve-out cube-style aggro but beats anything and everything else (especially control).

try the 60-card decks! it's really fun. (we drafted 6 utility lands per)

i might be going up to 4 wastelands
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I also can't really empathize with what you're talking about re. midrange because it is so far off from my experience.


Same here. When I'm not careful in tweaking the knobs on my cube, midrange often becomes scary good without even trying. Aggro, I have to buff. Control, I have to buff. Midrange? It's like the unsightly weeds on an otherwise well-pruned lawn - leave the yard unattended for a couple weeks, and come back to find it overrun and with dandelions.
 

CML

Contributor
hmmm, i guess this is how limited often is though mid-range in constructed seems more like a recent phenomenon. anyone else have this experience (with their cube or anyone else's)? we could be onto something here
 

CML

Contributor
UPDATE --

http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/114

OUT (22)
seaside citadel, arcane sanctum, crumbling necropolis, savage lands, jungle shrine / graven cairns, grove of the burnwillows / fetid heath, twilight mire, flooded grove, cascade bluffs, rugged prairie / caves of koilos, llanowar wastes, yavimaya coast, shivan reef, battlefield forge / copperline gorge, razorverge thicket, seachrome coast, darkslick shores, blackcleave cliffs / army of the damned, tidespout tyrant, lightning angel, thornling /// vivids, black land

IN (26)
10 fetches

unfulfilled desires, cauldron of souls, carrion feeder, keiga, the tide star, twilight shepherd, oversold cemetery, mindslicer, gravecrawler, goblin bombardment, anathemancer, master of the wild hunt, cemetery reaper, genesis, yavimaya elder, havengul lich, strangleroot geist /// shard lands, dakmor salvage

i should just say that actually being able to talk cube with you guys is a relief. the kind of idiocy that passes for 'design' in the community at large is annoying and as i am no lena dunham i do not revel in the failures of others as a means of masking my own
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I'll continue to watch Girls, as it's pretty much tailor-made for my demographic, but I wasn't super thrilled with Season 2. Also, I try not to criticize her directly as it only emphasizes the fact that she is three months younger than me and has done much much more in life than I likely ever will.
 

CML

Contributor
it's just the wasted talent that annoys me. i've read enough literature and gone to college with enough english majors to be sick of brilliant people who use their intelligence to fall in love with being unhappy. "only a smart person could be so stupid" in other words
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I think part of the problem is that Lena Dunham is so prolific at such a young age that she gets a great deal of criticism. I'm glad she's done the work she has, and even with flaws, I'm usually glad to have consumed it. I don't know if your reaction is more to her work or more to the articles and interviews that go out about her.

I can also imagine, as a menial content producer myself who gets mean and condescending comments from people who don't really understand what they're talking about or use logical or respectful arguments, that having a bunch of 50-year-olds constantly just say they don't "get" her work and whatnot can create a "me against the world" attitude. If she were less popular, she'd just have a horde of cult followers always praising her stuff.

By no means do I think her work is flawless, but I also wouldn't characterize her stuff as just "wasted talent".
 

CML

Contributor
oh yeah. i'm on the same page as you, i think. re. fame and pressure, a close analogue came up in my TV viewing today (he fouled out with :56 to play). i'm gonna type out some more ideas below since girls is interesting and i've gotta at some point start my own big book about why i hate new york city and everything it stands for. ANYWAY:

when lebron lets the criticism get to him, the result is a dumb heat welcoming party or at worst a blown championship. creative people's cognitive biases color every part of their work to a greater extent than lebron's do his, though, and so i think we gotta hold ourselves to a higher standard. i'm not saying 'be a role model' or anything -- au contraire mr. barkley! -- nor am i saying that depicting fucking up is bad, or that it even advocates fucking up. my argument is more that not knowing what you like will result in repetitiveness, staleness, making the same mistakes over and over again, and little growth (cf. mad men, lots of mtg players, new york city.) that brings us to the issue of 'wasted talent.' no, not all of girls is wasted talent, only some, and i'm so glad it's around, but it could be so much better (my chief complaint with mtg, another easy analogue -- and it's a complaint i wouldn't make if i didn't think there was both something there already as well as greater potential).

to wit: check out this twitter thing:

Happy Memorial Day! I've already peed in two different Starbucks bathrooms!

hilarious! but then the point was evidently some lame moral, viz.

Just an FYI to conservative dudes tweeting hate at me: "I hope you get breast cancer" is way more offensive than anything I've ever written.

droll and light, followed by platitudinous and dull. note how lena defines herself in opposition to "conservative dudes" while also maintaining superiority over them. then there is the term "offensive," which doesn't mean anything.

Okay, I wracked my brain to articulate why I can't just laugh off a porn parody of Girls and here are 3 reasons:
1. Because Girls is, at its core, a feminist action while Hustler is a company that markets and monetizes a male's idea of female sexuality
2. Because a big reason I engage in (simulated) onscreen sex is to counteract a skewed idea of that act created by the proliferation of porn
3. Because it grosses me out.

good god, girl, you know the whole point was to get a rise out of you, yes? she probably did, but then rose to the bait (fell to the bait?) anyway -- which is mainly what the whole memorial day thing was about, humor and entertainment being ancillary. you see there the danger of defining yourself in opposition to something -- lena dunham needs knuckle-dragging conservatives as much as knuckle-dragging conservatives need lena dunham, or ayn rand needs commies, or all utopians need flawed societies etc. this is what i mean by 'falling in love with unhappiness' -- without these enemies, who are not entirely dissimilar to her, and whose ideas are not very interesting, she'd be out of a job; it's sort of an excuse for not examining her own flaws (which syllogistically are also not very interesting).

let me bring this back into the realm of entertainment and my own emotions lest i fall into the same trap. a lack of insight into the self is a moral failing, but i don't know lena dunham and i don't give a fuck about that as my favorite author was a huge racist and an even huger classist and a catholic besides. however (as morals are ancillary to art -- not vice versa) it does result in artistic failings. the twitter feed and the show feel preachy. there is an obsession with the viewer -- the famous line (when the doctor tells hannah-lena she's got it goin on) is 'that's not the feedback i've been getting.' three ideas from this line: 1. a sane person doesn't base self-esteem on appearance, that's even a contradiction in terms -- it's there for other people's enjoyment. 2. that this is coming to mind as much other than a joke during a wish-fulfillment fantasy suggests that anxiety is just around the corner (it would sound ludicrous if a dude said it). 3. the 'feedback' thing is a (probably self-conscious) jibe at the viewership at large, which sees hannah-lena nearly naked all the time.

it follows that the reason for these nude scenes is less to make women more confident but to make them feel more valid about their insecurities. i think lena is good-looking but, who knows, maybe she'd rather i take her up on her dare to be called fat. the easy comparison is to the strains of feminism you encounter in slate (ugh, amanda marcotte), which doggedly defend girls and take a grim pleasure in ripping to shreds the most retrograde of critical responses. if these bitter, insecure, horny people were male you'd call them 'nice guys,' which of course is marcotte & co.'s favorite target. they love themselves but they hate their doubles. that's the definition of narcissism -- more profoundly than the creator-god that makes herself in her own image, then views (like the leering conservative men) the reflection in the television screen and (like the leering conservative men) pretends not to be both titillated and repulsed.

from here the rest of my reaction falls into place. most of it is related to the old catch-22 'those who can take criticism don't need it, and those who need criticism can't take it.' if critics treated girls the way girls treated critics, then they'd hate each other forever. i think you're right to point out the 'me vs. the world' delusion above, as it's an essential feature of the new york mindset -- in that city, as one becomes more successful, one becomes more paranoid, working hard and playing hard in a macabre and suicidal one-woman waltz. (how do i know this? i once lived there -- but i was another person then.) paranoid cases crave loyalty above all else, which might be why lena harps on so shrilly the word 'feminist' -- any self-applied ism is never descriptive, it's just an excuse for getting away with whatever because whatever. viewers become not respected guests and interlocutors who ought to be loved as equals, but pew-bound congregants whose sycophancy determines their virtue. girls simplifies itself in the worst way by pushing real life through the agenda "at its core" instead of having the two engage each other; everything, the characters, the dialogue, the subplots, the whole arc, suffers. outright propaganda is not something that i think art is much good for -- then you have to hold yourself to an even higher standard than before, but if you did you wouldn't subordinate art to such low ends, wouldn't live life from conclusion to argument. if one of the major themes of girls is 'growing up' then the hypocrisy of an essentially fixed and simplistic worldview makes it less fun to watch than i'd like it to be. when the creator of a show tries to make viewers into apostles, it is her own richness she destroys.

so what is lena dunham into, personally? check out this tweet:

Followed @jasoncollins34 so twitter is suggesting that I follow all these sporty type athletes. Hey twitter, not into sports: into progress

as a self-parody this tweet is tremendous; as something serious it freaks me the fuck out. 'yo lets talk about sports.' / 'nah, i'm not into sports, let's talk about progress' -- what the hell? only someone successful could get away with being so absurd. also sports are beautiful and it's weird when artists brag about being philistines. lotsa the people into girls fit this philistine mold, i've noticed, and since lena dunham is fucking smart, she must have noticed as well; she's smart enough to know that her fans suck and her critics (the ones she ignores) are awesome. so what to do about it? it's a terrible trap. if you're wondering why working at wizards is rough, or why borges says that 'fame is a form of incomprehension', or how religions get started, it's all here. you try to be true to yourself. commercial success follows, but then you're stuck in the genre of yourself and cannot change lest you lose that success. you wriggle out of it and try to write something older and wiser, but you find you've been typecast and must write a pallid sequel with the same old mistakes, not new and exciting ones. you convince yourself that you'll be truer to yourself by obliquely approaching your ideals and that you'll be and do what you want to some day, but then that happens over and over again to you and then your kids. this is pretty much the best-case scenario for new yorkers. you could apply it to wizards employees too and it wouldn't be too inaccurate.

i've mentioned my hatred of new york a few times, and i'd be a hypocrite if i didn't acknowledge some more of my own biases. the brand of feminism in girls is, as i've written above, not in favor of women kicking ass all over the place -- it would prefer women act poorly and get treated well; it demands respect instead of earning it; it is not mary jacobson but the 'lady planeswalker society' (which is something i can write about somewhere else). i find the whole 'want it both ways' thing to be little more than intellectualizing insecurity and i consider it and the women and men who are into it misogynists. this is why i call myself an 'anti-feminist feminist,' though i'm sure i too am a misogynist in some profound and perhaps insidious ways. for example, the other day i realized that i was hating on my ex (who also lives in new york and who i presume hates girls) for doing the same high-powered business thing as one of my good male friends here. in this case, i think i've been cloaking my tyranny and own unhappiness (mild and fleeting as it is) under the guise of good intentions and high expectations. some of the more incisive critics about girls i'm sure are guilty of the same. anyway, i've been a bit of an asshole about it to my ex. on one hand, i ought not to have been. on the other, what use is there in pretending i wasn't? and when she got mad about it -- does that mean she's sensitive to the criticism because i'm right?

so this is my assessment of girls: on one hand, it's a brilliant evocation of new york as it exists for young adults; on the other, it doesn't hate new york nearly as much as it ought to -- but if it did, then it wouldn't be so brilliant; just as lena is a compelling character, but for different reasons than (i imagine) she thinks, girls entertains me, but for different reasons than it's 'supposed to'; there's more to it than its fans could ever know. the classic hitch line goes 'feminists can't take a joke, and comedians can't take criticism,' but it's all pretty complex, more complex than that -- and girls sells itself short by not further exploring these complexities -- though, whatever it is, it's not just 'a piece of shit' like sex in the city or nora ephron films that use love as a metaphor for everything and thereby render that word meaningless. it's a relatively subtle critique i'm trying to make, and though that does underscore your first point i wonder if lena would prefer that i write something less thoughtful so i could be labeled, pilloried, and excommunicated.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
That's a lot to digest, and I read it all, but I don't really know that I can engage all of it.

I do wonder about this line though:
'those who can take criticism don't need it, and those who need criticism can't take it.'

I think criticism is extremely helpful, especially to those who can take it. But I think it's important to be able to filter out what criticism is helpful and what criticisms are simply attacks that are trying to shape you into the vision the critic has for the world. To put it in Magic terms, if somebody says to me "breaking singleton is terrible, it's not skill testing and ruins drafting" then I'm probably going to brush them off as somebody who is going to hate what I do pretty much regardless of the quality of my designs.

But I also make mistakes. In my DGM review, I said something like "If I were looking for a conditional 2-for-1, I'd play Agony Warp or a second copy of Arc Trail". Sam Pardee rightly called me out in the comments for the second Arc Trail thing, and I realized my comment was kind of stupid. Well, more accurately, I could see there being a theoretical design for wanting a second Arc Trail, but I don't think I'm anywhere close to that, and there are other cards that would bring more depth and fun to my environment. Not that I was ever considering a second Arc Trail, but it was a pretty dumb thing to write.

Moreover, the more criticism I get of my designs, the better. Kind of. Assuming the critic has been intelligent and analytic. I don't need insults, but I would gain from people thoughtfully bringing new ideas and theories to the table, and saying "I don't think you're doing this very well". I wish my green section had higher quality design, and if somebody helped me get there I'd be really happy.


Lastly, I think "growing up" is almost the antithesis of a Girls theme. If anything, Girls is showing people who fundamentally don't change. Look at Marnie. She ended Season 1 on some sort of character upswing, (chubby guy at the wedding), then Season 2 basically made no forward progress and ultimately went back to Charlie, who was still the same person but now with a stocked bank account. Hannah didn't really go anywhere either. Or any of the girls.

I also remember having the feeling that some moments were far too overtly preachy, but it all pretty much pales in comparison to what Weeds did in its later seasons.
 

CML

Contributor
oh GOD weeds.

yeah, in new york external signifiers of success are all the progress one makes. the city is both valuable and cruel for bringing down rich people as well as the poor (or letting them bring down themselves)
 

CML

Contributor
note: i also object to the notion that sex can be anything but hilarious and/or hot, ESPECIALLY in retrospect
 

CML

Contributor
i'm trying to put in more non-creature cards and trying out new graveyard enablers, hence desires. this is tied to the sac and recursion theme, hence shepherd (rotating fatties in and out anyway). mindslicer is also part of this. shard lands i'm switching out to the utility draft to make fixing more aggro-oriented.
 

CML

Contributor
ok, cube was pretty excellent last night (9 people, long session, beer, weed) with the exception of three things: zombies / sac theme, loam, and wasteland.

the failure of sac / recursion etc. is easily explained -- the cards weren't really good enough.

the failure of loam is a little tougher, so i'll just try to describe the subjective experience. i discovered that i hate playing with loam in cube, and the rest of the playgroup seems to agree since none of them will ever take it. it's tedious to assemble the synergy, hope you don't mill a piece (or do!), pick the lands out of the yard, etc. (performing like seven actions a turn) while villain does nothing, then eventually untaps and kills you. those cards, like fetches, were made for modo.

the failure of wasteland (i went with 3 in the main cube) is of course tied in with loam but it seemed to go beyond that. crucible was of course a massive headache -- one of our strongest drafters put together a UWbr list with wasteland, dust bowl, crucible, enlightened tutor, and succeeded in making the games pretty much about that and nothing else. the extra variable trivialized all the rest of them. other theoretical issues like 'cube curves are far higher than legacy curves' and 'colorless lands that blow up colored lands increase variance' seem salient, but most importantly, when of our other strong players and game connoisseurs pointed out that drafting the low-margin utility lands wasn't worth it due to the wasteland locks, i was forced to agree.

however! at least it was funny to see the kvetcher moan (he's one of them stolid programming types) and the entire thing was won (the first time we've had a 'winner' in weeks!) by an insane Urw deck that fetched for basics with thawing glaciers and that i unfortunately took apart before i could share it with the world.

jason: can you further describe how these design features end up working in your cube? they seem to be such a sweet part of yours, and were such poor fits with mine, that i wonder why. your curve is lower and you break singleton etc. but our cubes are still much closer to one another than they are to the modo cube.

ok! so i made the following changes. i'm sticking 4x tec edge in the utility draft to blow up them pesky mazes and stuff. it's a pretty violent swing from 3 wastelands main, but given how oppressive the pretentious eliot poem lands were i thought i'd err on the other side. tec edge is bad but it's not THAT bad. you can kinda play it in modern? also, i moved township, wolf run, vault to the main cube from the utility land draft rather arbitrarily -- those are the ones in that pile i feel are worth a pick.

main cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/114

OUT (40)
wasteland, wasteland, wasteland, 5 ONS fetches, tidehollow sculler, cemetery reaper, gloomdrifter, gravecrawler, putrid leech, carrion feeder, battle screech, oversold cemetery, army of the damned, barter in blood, chain of smog, akuta born of ash, raven’s crime, blood artist, bloodghast, hound of griselbrand, greater gargadon, seismic assault, goblin bombardment, ulvenwald tracker, genesis, primeval titan, bloodhall ooze, anathemancer, life from the loam, crucible of words, mesmeric orb, cauldron of souls, sprouting thrinax, equilibrium, shambling remains, consuming aberration

IN (40)

gavony township, vault of the archangel, kessig wolf run, master biomancer, creakwood liege, hallowed burial, kor skyfisher, mangara of corondor, infest, executioner’s capsule, night’s whisper, throat slitter, consuming vapors, olivia voldaren, cursed scroll, thornling, krenko, mob boss, hellspark elemental, stigma lasher, reckless charge, borderland ranger, fyndhorn elves, nightveil specter, gerrard’s verdict, congregation at dawn, azorius charm, temporal spring, damnation, into the roil, coldsteel heart, fetid heath, twilight mire, flooded grove, cascade bluffs, rugged prairie, blackcleave cliffs, copperline gorge, razorverge thicket, seachrome coast, darkslick shores

utility land stack:

W -- karakas, ancient den, kjeldoran outpost, windbrisk heights, eiganjo castle
U -- halimar depths, faerie conclave, shelldock isle, seat of the synod, cephalid coliseum
B -- urborg t of y, barren moor, dakmor salvage, phyrexian tower, bojuka bog
R -- kher keep, barbarian ring, shinka the bs keep, forgotten cave, ghitu encampment
G -- pendelhaven, dryad arbor, gaea's cradle, tranquil thicket, treetop village
M -- krosan verge, thawing glaciers, nephalia drownyard, moorland haunt, desolate lighthouse, slayers' stronghold, vesuva
X -- miren the m well, mishra's factory, ancient tomb, tectonic edge, tectonic edge, tectonic edge, tectonic edge
3 -- seaside citadel, arcane sanctum, crumbling necropolis, savage lands, jungle shrine

over n out!
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Alright, well, regarding the sacrifice theme, it's possible you didn't push it far enough. It's been a pretty great element of my cube's design, but the reason it works is because there is a lot of it. Breaking singleton is also pretty necessary, as the Gravecrawlers and Bloodghasts are really what make it tick. Cooperfauss did the same singleton breaking to get it to work in his cube.

I also suspect that you underestimate how different the pace of our cubes is. Go check out the "3 - 0 decks" thread. We have a ton of decks that top out at 4 CMC, or have only 1 5 CMC+ card. Wastelocks can be too slow, or irrelevant. Many decks are perfectly functional on 3 - 4 basics. I do wish there were a Tectonic Edge card that came online at 3 lands instead of 4 lands though. Tec Edge is usually too weak to include in our decks. All in all I think speed is the main difference. The most common use case here is an Aggro or Tempo deck just Wastelanding a land and the game continuing.
 

CML

Contributor
yeah, like when we crunched the numbers your avg CMC was slightly but significantly (it seems) lower than mine. legacy curves are so low as to trivialize that discrepancy, though, so there must be another reason that wasteland wasn't working for me, significant as the lower curve is. i'm also guessing that your 20/360 fetches are so strong for aggro fixing that they're lowering the effective curve as well, but i wonder what the other reasons are! my best guess is that ramp and control are bigger things here than they are in belgium.

that feeds into the next point viz. sac and zombies -- i agree that it wasn't big enough and that (like almost all themes) it gets better the bigger it is. the critical mass required for this theme seems so big, though -- it was already 15 cards, and they weren't at all sought-after by more than one person. i'm happy to break singleton (we've doubled up on some pieces of graveyard hate and are drooling over the scavenging ooze reprint!) but the theme was getting to the point where i'd have to start cutting cards from other ones, and it didn't do enough with those established themes to make it worth it. amusingly though i struggled to find and include as many zombies as possible the tribe still topped out at 15 cards, versus 45 for humans. i think that goes to show how champ and mayor are the sweetest tribal cards in cube.

agreed tec edge is disappointing, though certainly some decks will want it. a custom tec edge that's either 0 to activate or requires 3 lands or is pushed a little towards the wasteland end of things is a popular pipe dream for cube designers and modern players alike.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I'm unsure of the exact makeup, but have you considered dropping loam/crucible instead of all the wastelands? I'm still singleton on those kinds of effects, but I'm definitely sure my aggro decks need them, though more to delay control decks a turn than to actually lock them out of the game.
I think I've suggested Tectonic Edge before, and it may be a better fit for your cube than wasteland is, as it offers all the defense against problematic lands without any of the manascrew. If you want to keep loam in to keep feuling manland beatdown, this could work.
Another alternative is to set Rishadan Port as the bar for disruptive colorless lands in your cube, since it doesn't interact with Crucible/Life at all.

How has the Mill you plan been going? I see consuming abberation got cut, and it saddens my heart. So much potential in that guy :)
 

CML

Contributor
the mill plan didn't work out -- i might have written a few deets in that thread but most of them are above (the effects have to be symmetrical, and soft graveyard themes are tedious to play with and against.) it's funny, i wrote that primer and most of it was well-reasoned yet none of it ended up being right at all. jason's three sentences said more about the design than my entire 2,000 words did. as for me, only a smart person could be so dumb; it's given me empathy into the world's broader failures at cube and game design ...

wasteland without recursion is probably fine, since if they kill a tundra they won't kill a karakas (if you will). i might try that if the tec edges end up not working out, i'm just giving much lower power level a try since my heuristics are obviously flawed and i don't trust my design judgment right now!
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I like the Rishadan Port suggestion. That might be more appropriate for the power level.

Yeah, Chris, lots of ideas sound great on paper and suck in practice. I'm looking forward to experiencing a lot of that with the Eldrazi-Domain cube. It all ties into probably the best design advice you can give: playtest your games often and honestly.
 

CML

Contributor
--theory post--

right, and also have a sense of what's worth testing. the guy who comes to our LGS talking about 'bred for the hunt' in standard and refuses to let go of his halfwit ideas comes to mind. (what do you call someone whose ideas are all good? a libertarian -- i mean, an idiot.) a less extreme example is this girl who who cleaves to the idea that 'you have to make the mistake' in order to learn from it, but then the fact that she repeatedly tests the same stupid ideas is intimately connected with her utter inability to evaluate cards or improve as a player.

building on this, the notion of 'scrubs' from that excellent article you posted seems relevant. as for why excellent magic players are terrible design scrubs when it comes to cube, i am not really sure. i guess they're the type of people that need an external carrot and stick to direct their creativity (cf. maro). though this reinforces the virtue of capitalism, i cannot help but be contemptuous of this bias, which is the opposite of self-motivation; maybe the mothership doyens are unable to accept criticism because they know, without their positions, they would be nothing; a title is a terrible substitute for a sense of taste and self.

there's some ice cream koan about 'being a casual player in the game of life' here, but i'll just type out an anecdote instead. one of my oldest friends just got out of marine corps OCS, describing it as a hellish experience in a way that every commentator found totally predictable (except for himself); now he's gonna commit a similar error by going to law school; if you're making the same mistakes over and over again, design-wise or life-wise, then you're not really learning from them (see girls, above). on the other hand, my own bias of learning too little by doing too little also has its drawbacks. to this end, the word 'theorycrafting' (with its brood war etymology) is an interesting one to unpack, as is the word you used above, 'honest.' i don't think most people are very good at assessing the effects of their design choices on cube, which then becomes a metaphor for bad life choices, other ways they lie to themselves, bad taste, not really being happy, and all the other stuff i obsess about when writing and reading.

i'll just wrap up by saying the failure to accept criticism and honestly assess one's design choices is both a symptom and a cause of the more corrosive aspects of mtg culture. according to some gossip i heard the other day, a lot of it comes from hasbro's maladroit meddling in wizards' corporate affairs, but when this stops being a reason and starts being an excuse is not clear. anyway, i'm grateful for and reliant on my cube playgroup to help me make the damn thing better and extirpate terrible ideas like the mill one -- like in life, where friends help one test reality by trafficking in difficult truths -- and the failure of this kind of thing to catch on in the at-large mtg community both is tragic and reaffirms the need for forums like these.

lastly, i wanna try port, sweet suggestion!
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
So one thing I've said to Eric is that a major difference between design and playing is that when you play a game you have a really easy evolution mechanism. There is a clear metric. Which decks win? You get very objective feedback this way. Further, the churning of ideas is expedited by high-profile events (Dailies, GPs, SCGs, PTs, etc.). If somebody says "this deck is good" and has the results to back it up, people catch on pretty quickly.

Design has no such metric. I can say "I don't think this design pattern leads to fun experiences", but it pretty much ends there. We're also at a huge disadvantage. Somebody can grind a hundred matches with a deck in a week, but even the more active cube managers barely manage one draft a week. That's my big bottleneck.

I also think it's hard to be objective. I see this a lot in my statistical consulting. People don't want the honest truth, so much as they want an affirmation that what they want to be true appears to be "true". Many people will think you are bad at your job if you tell them a truth they don't want to hear, or worse, say that the data isn't conclusive at all.
 

CML

Contributor
'lies, damned lies, and statistics'

jason: i agree that having an objective standard to look to -- 'results' -- is ultimately helpful even if 'results-oriented' is a limpid description of a cognitive bias itself. results are great! they're what separate us from the edh retards.

cube was really good last night, a magnificent iteration with fun utility lands, 4 tec edges, 15 fetches and so forth. it was almost perfect.

later today when it's not so damn nice out i'll post x-0 decklists!
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I'm jealous, it's pouring rain here and I may have to work a longer day :p
15 fetches? Did you include the mirage ones?
 

CML

Contributor
2x of each ZEN. i was tryna encourage people to wedge it up. (nobody did)

the list is more or less current right now check out the link!
 
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