General [CMR] Commander Legends Previews
- Thread starter Peter LaCara
- Start date
Then after I go on this ramble I see this:
Can't tell if this is just Gavin trying to calm fires against his baby (which is surprising as the pauper community is pretty small), or actual WotC thought patterns.
Really hoping it is the latter.
I think Gavin is just trying to cover his ass ahead of the fact. He's a nice guy and obviously passionate about the game, but I think he's absolutely out of touch with the ins and outs of the formats that he's designing for. Like you can't just go about spouting bullshit as though it were a fact. Case in point:
Dark Ritual is a powerful card. It has always been a powerful card. It also a very good card in a format like EDH where getting your engines online or turboing into a haymaker can drastically change a game. The fact that this is even being discussed is crazy to me. Like have you just not played with Dark Ritual before? Getting to play your 5 drop on T3 is big game and being able to do that with a virtual 8th card in your command zone via Jewelled Lotus, one that is likely an all-in-one value factory to recoup lost card advantage, is just obnoxious. I just don't understand how they've been so consistently shortsighted with recent design decisions.
Maybe that's just what he should be doing as a designer, but this whole push the envelope and then take corrective actions to fix problems after the fact is a very bad way to go about cultivating a healthy gameplay experience. Players are the ones who suffer from these decisions. But hey, as long as Limited is fun for the 4-5 weeks before everyone has burnt themselves out and solved the metagame I guess that's a tradeoff they're cool with.
Luckily we are 100 % not affected by Jeweled Lotus in our cubes. Topic closed 
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Maybe we're doing it wrong, but I've never seen someone in my Commander scene cast a Dark Ritual. Still scared for the Lotus though, since it generates one more mana and goes in any deck...
That said, it's basically Darksteel Relic in cube. Super useless.
That said, it's basically Darksteel Relic in cube. Super useless.
Dark Ritual isn't that strong in most edh decks. There's a subset of strats where it's fine, but overall meh. Maybe in the CDH meta or something....
If your deck revolves around your commander, and the deck wants it on the table ASAP, the lotus can be obscene. Lots of situations where that isn't the case. Bad draw if your commander is already out and safe. Not super strong if you deck is a tad multifaceted and can operate without the commander. Would rather have a variety of more widely applicable ramp in a lot of situations.
If your deck revolves around your commander, and the deck wants it on the table ASAP, the lotus can be obscene. Lots of situations where that isn't the case. Bad draw if your commander is already out and safe. Not super strong if you deck is a tad multifaceted and can operate without the commander. Would rather have a variety of more widely applicable ramp in a lot of situations.
In EDH, I've only ever seen dark ritual played in Doomsday combo decks. I've never seen it cast from a player's hand and never to help cast a commander. Dark ritual is a broken card in most 60-card constructed formats, but it is highly improbable for it to be used to it's fullest extent in commander.
Really? We must be playing completely different styles then. I can't think of many 1-2 color black decks where I wouldn't play it nowadays, but then again I think most people overlook rituals in general. I definitely did years ago. But being able to power out some card advantage engine even earlier is just so worth the handful of times it ends up being a crap topdeck late. Even if it's something like an early Phyrexian Arena; that's just great. Hell, I'll even play something like Seething Song in my Ruric Thar, the Unbowed because powering out a key piece or means of generating a huge advantage is well worth punching myself for 12. As my playgroup has gotten more focused with their deckbuilding and strategies we deploy over the years, efficiency is more important that just playing all the cool stuff but YMMV depending on your group. We're not CEDH, but definitely on the higher end of tuned deck lists. TLDR; I just think rituals are just great in general in a format that leans heavily towards generating card advantage.
To keep this Cube related, I can see Lotus being alright in something like the CMDR cube I've been designing on and off for the last year. If it's limited to a one-off in an entire cube where someone gets to live the dream every now and then. I think it's fine. However, I don't think this translates well at all to normal EDH where, much like Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, this will lead to an huge advantage when deployed earlier and bad gameplay patterns. This is true even in a normal cube environment; fast mana is dangerous to mess around with and very powerful in general. Powerful rocks are better than one-time rituals, but I don't think either should be taken lightly because most of the time they'll be powering out something way ahead of schedule that you'll (presumably) recoup advantage from. In the case of Lotus, usually a commander that can generate advantages all in one.
Luckily we are 100 % not affected by Jeweled Lotus in our cubes. Topic closed
Fair, but I don't think it's particularly useful to shut off discussion if you don't have an interest in it. Maybe on other forums that are more rigid about rules enforcement, but freeform discussion has always been the norm here and the tangents are often better discussion than the main topic.
But I don't really want to bitch about Lotus and shit design principles anymore so point taken.
This is so strange to me; people have been playing Dark Ritual in my groups for years now. And I definitely don't agree about it being improbable to use to its full extent. You don't need to hit the gamewinning homerun with Dark Ritual for it to be good. It doesn't need to a be a Doomsday combo to end the game. All you need is a second card that can be deployed ahead of schedule that will generate advantage for you. That could be winning the game, but it could also just be something that lets you get your pieces ready and engines going.
Want to draw cards? Power out a Phyrexian Arena T1 and start drawing from the next turn. Your commander is your gameplan? Power out your Rankle, Master of Pranks from the command Zone on T2 and start wrecking hands and making life miserable. Troublesome creature deployed? Power out an early Ob Nixilis Reignited to kill it and then start drawing cards in future turns. Wanna get cute with it? Power out a Bone Miser ahead of schedule and then follow it up next turn with a wheel. Just want to fuck everyone up? Play out an early Bolas's Citadel on T4 and go to town.
Commander is definitely the most open-ended of all formats, but I just don't agree with the idea that Dark Ritual isn't all that powerful. I think more people are underrating it due to not being flashy and taking up a slot that could go to something sweet, but it's the card that lets you deploy things with a ton of consistency and it's only ever bad if you're completely out of gas.
Your playgroup could be particularly tuned to using that sort of effect, or is particularly fond of black/red decks in general. IMO a T1 mana dork or a T2 mana rock will just be much more valuable the vast majority of actual play sequences. They are generating mana value over potentially many turns, which can power out many of your needed pieces, instead of just one piece. And all of the scenarios listed above are, of course, basically Mono-B scenarios. I have only seen one-two mono-B decks in my years of playing. Hard to pull off in my Karametra deck....
That's fair. I would most often prefer those permanent options, but when you don't have it available in your colors or you just need to get out a single card early that's when cards like Seething Song and Dark Ritual that punch above the usual rate really shine. I think as long as they're powering out something that recoups the lost card advantage of the ritual you're golden.
If we're gonna discuss similar circumstances, that's also what you'd get out of putting Lotus into Karametra. I've also got a Karametra deck and it's the one I've mained and fine-tuned the most. Using your ritual equivalent in Lotus to power her out early would be strong as hell. Where you might have just gone with elves early to develop, or maybe stuff like Enchantress's Presence or Eidolon of Blossoms to curve into her for added value, you're likely better off sandbagging creatures later on after turboing out an early Karametra to get those free Rampant Growths staped onto a each cast. At least that's what I would do in my deck. To make rituals worth it, you just need something worth powering out that can generate card advantage. I don't think that's a very tall ask for that format in particular.
If we're gonna discuss similar circumstances, that's also what you'd get out of putting Lotus into Karametra. I've also got a Karametra deck and it's the one I've mained and fine-tuned the most. Using your ritual equivalent in Lotus to power her out early would be strong as hell. Where you might have just gone with elves early to develop, or maybe stuff like Enchantress's Presence or Eidolon of Blossoms to curve into her for added value, you're likely better off sandbagging creatures later on after turboing out an early Karametra to get those free Rampant Growths staped onto a each cast. At least that's what I would do in my deck. To make rituals worth it, you just need something worth powering out that can generate card advantage. I don't think that's a very tall ask for that format in particular.
If you've ever played with or against Maelstrom Wanderer, which I hated when I played Commander because the deck basically builds itself and is void of significant decisions, you know what an issue this Lotus is.
It's also a super lazy, cash-grab design. That's my bigger issue with it. You can try to argue it's not a staple in every single deck ever made, but that's a pretty weak starting point.
Not sure if I want this or not, but it's a cute design.
Again, not sure if I'll use it, but it's a cool idea. Plague Wind but you get to keep some 2/2s OR a Wrath that gives you 6 2/2s.
It's also a super lazy, cash-grab design. That's my bigger issue with it. You can try to argue it's not a staple in every single deck ever made, but that's a pretty weak starting point.
Not sure if I want this or not, but it's a cute design.
Again, not sure if I'll use it, but it's a cool idea. Plague Wind but you get to keep some 2/2s OR a Wrath that gives you 6 2/2s.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
So on the one hand I love this art but on the other hand if this card was made for 1v1 it would have like...half as many words
Dom Harvey
Contributor
If this card was in German it would just be one long word
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I mean I ran council's judgement for years with the wording scaled back
It's funny they printed a Mirror Gallery in a set designed for a singleton format. I get why they did it, but it's still hilarious.
I'm surprised no one mentioned the almost strictly better Zealous Conscripts. Sure, this doesn't have haste, but splinter twinning it does let you steal the entire board, so that's neat.
Why are you surprised? The card was spoiled only 10 hours before you posted it here.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums...r-good-morning-magic-11-03-coercive-recruiter
I personally don't run enough Pirates. I worry players will think Pirates are a theme if they see this. Also it doesn't have haste so the blowout potential is 3 damage lower than Conscript.
The card was spoiled only 10 hours before you posted it here.https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums...r-good-morning-magic-11-03-coercive-recruiter
I personally don't run enough Pirates. I worry players will think Pirates are a theme if they see this. Also it doesn't have haste so the blowout potential is 3 damage lower than Conscript.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Is it bad that I'm almost excited more about reprints here?
Also:
3UU
Creature - Avatar
Body of Knowledge's power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your hand.
You have no maximum hand size.
Whenever Body of Knowledge is dealt damage, draw that many cards.
This seems like a good rate for this effect, but I'm curious as to whether or not this goes into any decks other than Aristocrats strategies. It can definitely provide a decent amount of fodder for Makeshift Munitions for those of you who run it over Goblin Bombardment.Impulsive Goblin
Creature - Goblin Pirate
When Impulsive Goblin dies, create a Treasure token.
Encore
1/1
When I first saw Body of Knowledge, I misread it as drawing cards whenever it dealt damage. That felt... less OK.
I think Impulsive Goblin has uses outside of Aristocrats. Off the top of my head...
I think Impulsive Goblin has uses outside of Aristocrats. Off the top of my head...
- An aggro deck might like it as a "free" mana-fixing 1/1. Going Mountain →Impulsive Goblin →Kird Ape would be a pretty sweet first turn.
- If you run flicker or populate shenanigans, it can act as a little bit of ramp/fixing.
- If you have an artifact deck that cares about metalcraft, this little guy is a kinda janky way to get two artifacts from one card.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
It's dies, not ETB for the treasure