Erik's "The cool side of Magic" cube

[Erik Twice]

So, at a glance, I think my cube is finished. It can be improved, but there are no longer any cards below the treshold of playability. Sure, I can replace Paradise Druir with something a little more fitting (Werebear?), I might replace a creature with a white control card and so on. But I'm very happy with the cube as a whole.

If you have any last suggestions or cards you think I can replace for something a little more interesting or ways to boost a certain archetype, I'm all ears I'm going to start looking for ways to print proxies and sort out the cards I already have.

 

[Erik Twice]

I've been cutting my proxies and pasting them only to notice I forgot to print my entire red section of the cube. Ouch! I'll have to go to the printer. Any suggestions or changes for my red bit? I'll do this for sure:

->

Kiki-Jiki didn't really do anything. Its mana cost is very limiting. I also can't run both of these cards.

->

Hellkite is a nice card but it has been more underwhelming than I thought. Wildfire decks don't really need the Hellkite and everyone else has enough options that it comes a bit short. I'm sure I'm giving the card less credit than it deserves, but I'm not sure I like it as much as Terror of the Peaks. Terror is higher power, but it makes RG Monsters more viable and fun. It's also a good reanimator target. It's downright game-winning with Living Death, though.

 

[Erik Twice]

With physical cards in hand, I've been able to test more than before. And I've started to see a problem: It's difficult for decks to close out the game.

Here's the thing: There are many ways in my cube to get value. There's a lot of cheap interaction, recursion, tutors and all other tools to get back into the game and keep yourself engaged and making good decisions. But there are few ways to turn that value into a win. For example, if you play a straight control deck and your opponent keeps playing creatures, how do you win?

While these cards are very strong, they don't break a stall:



There are also some cards that stall the game but don't raise the possibility to win:



This can be played 3 times in the same game, creating a bunch of 1/1 tokens that deter all attacks but don't win.

However, I might be just building decks incorrectly. After all, I do have a lot of strong finishers:



What do you think? Do you think my list is more stall-prone than most? Perhaps I just need a few bigger beaters with trample, flying or other evasion, as well as ways to turn small guys into a threat.



---

Some more thoughts:

1) Orzhvo hatebear aggro is weaker than I thought.
2) Selesnya is very, very strong. It always has board presence, has some busted cards and can come back over and over from a wipe. I knew Earthcraft would be strong, but Chord of Calling is not the janky build-around I thought! It's a very strong card that can slap down a big threat.

Thoughts?

 

[sigh]

Honestly your cube looks quite similar in composition to mine, but at a slightly higher power level. So coming form a point of direct comparison: I do notice more dedicated token generation in white and green (Hornet Queen gross gross). That's one thing that obviously can tend towards stalling. Your reanimation is quite a bit more powerful than mine, which can lead to more difficulty in the opponent keeping the board clear. Noting the overall higher power level, I see a set of specifically high CMC creatures that seem a little behind the times compared to non-creatures like Mindslaver etc.

Some hexproof or similar and some evasion I think will help the high end slots.

Some serious thought into the tokens. They are just everywhere. Even in colors not typically token-oriented we have things like marionette master. Probably a double pronged approach of some swap outs and some ways to buff the tokens as you mention. Rally the Peasants is far and away my favorite card for this purpose as instant speed pump effects are generally few and far between in cubes, and it can either give the opponent troubles two separate times or crush with +4/+0.

I'm seeing a bevy of sacrifice effects in Black. That matches poorly with the vast array of token makers.

I see a pyroclasm effect, which is a good counter balance mechanism, but one key slot I see as missing is "three damage to each creature". Sweltering Suns is my go-to. An "X" burn spell that can split damage like comet storm is another consideration, and has the side benefit of giving R another way to insta-close a game.

Maybe Standstill should get a second look if we are concerned about closing out games and/or games going to long.

Keep in mind my list is 2+ years old at this point. No new updates since 2018. So there are certainly cards missing that I probably would have today if I was updating.

 

[Nanonox]

I see some cool win conditions in your list for more controlling decks (Approach of the Second Sun, Thassa's Oracle, Laboratory Maniac, Cruel Ultimatum). I see some ways to push through damage in all colors (Parallax Wave, Cryptic Command, Demonic Embrace, Embercleave, Rancor) and some synergy finishers (Marionette Master, Seismic Assault, Titania, Protector of Argoth, Mindslaver).

The potential issue I see are the stax effects being played wrong and prolonging the game. Cataclysm, Death Cloud, Devastating Dreams. If you are not closing the game out rapidly, these become painful.

For your Orzhov hatebear, I would like to see more disruption in the form of Thalia, Heretic Cathar, Kinjali Sunwing, Archon of Emeria or Vryn Wingmare. Actual hatebears!

 

[sigh]

Totally forgot about you asking re: WB hatebears. This is an archetype I directly support (again as of 2018). Here's a deck that is pretty indicative of what I see when the deck is (was) built.

WB aggro from CubeTutor.com

 

[Erik Twice]

Hey, thanks for the post Sigh.

I agree there are quite a few token generators in my cube. The issue I have is not so much stalling defensively as it is stalling and not being able to do too much with the resources you have. I feel the value is not being directed towards wins but towards creatures that can't reliably attack. Tokens are fine if they chump block or suicide into blockers, not so much if they do nothing.

For example, you mention there are not enough sacrifice effects in black. Adding another might be very helpful. Note that black doesn't have a big evasive creature and Marionette Master is my attempt at making the artifact deck include black as well. Perhaps I should add cards like this:




And cut the most annoying token cards:



Any cards that stand as being overly stall-prone?

The finisher and fatties are a bit old-fashioned because they can be ramped to or cheated in with more ease than in most cubes. Angel of Despair has been a beating because you can use its ability several times. In fact, I've found the cube to be far slower paced and more rampny than I thought. I'm hitting 6 and 7 mana with most decks and I'm shifting my mana costs up. Hornet Queen actually breaks stalls but she's in midrange territory and I'm not sure I like that.

The issue is that these bigger cards can't compensate the early stalls. If I've drawn 20 cards and there are 5 creatures on the board, a big creature won't change that unless it's GRBS. So I need to make the game stall less on its early stages and revise some of my fatties. For example, Green could use them.

For example, my green section has none of the usual "beefy beaters" that define the colour. I don't know what to run. I should also look into more ways to give small creatures range. Champion of Lambholt, Whirler Rogue and other similar cards have been fantastic and promoted the kind of play style I want.

 

[Erik Twice]

Seems I wrote while you guys were replying!

I agree Yahenni and Thalia, Heretic Cathar should go in. Both are versatile cards that can put some pressure. I do have a bit of a nonbo between spells matter in UWR and Thalia but it should be minor.

Perhaps some small changes could go a long way in solving this issue. Because other than that the games are very fun and I like them a lot.

 

[sigh]

Black is the most troublesome spot for beaters IMO. Peaking at Noxious Gearhulk can leave decks lacking quickly. If tokens aren't leading to defensive stalls (which I find surprising), they certainly aren't helping the top end. Both in the way you mention that tokens aren't given enough oomf to be meaningful, but also in that lots of your top end is producing tokens. This leads to a double whammy where you have tokens that aren't getting their oomf early game, which are simply joined by... even more tokens! That balance of token quantity and "quality" so to speak may be a major consideration.

I was actually pointing out that there are too many sacrifice effects, not too few. A sacrifice effect is basically a dead card against tokens, so it can lead to some early-game problems not being dealt with properly. tokens and sacrifice are antithetical as features of a cube, at least when present in extremes.

For a white Planeswalket I'd probably go to one that team pumps. That Elspeth is the worst of spamming multiple tokens + not really team pumping effectively. Ajani Steadfast is effective in both a go tall or a go-wide deck and doesn't contribute to token spam. Gideon, Martial Paragon is another option with two different team pumps, one that should be an OHKO

I don't see anything that particularly stands out as "stall-prone" at low CMCs. It gets a lot harder to analyze at the lower CMCs without seeing a dozen games or something. Too much consistency in either draw effects or actual redundancy of card functions is a possible reason, but I don't have any strong evidence for that being the case.

Fewer one mana ramp spells in favor of 2+ mana ramp is one way to potentially temper early game explosive plays that clutter up the board quickly.

The dual lands (the true duals) are probably foundational to the cubes aesthetic, but fixing lands that enter tapped are a huge piece in pacing out early games.

Basically I'm seeing a high+ power framework with a lot of synergy innards. I suspect that that high+ shell is mucking with how the synergy games usually play out, leading to messy boards very quickly that have difficulty coming to resolution later in the games. Just a gut feel.

 

[sigh]

Seems I wrote while you guys were replying!

I agree Yahenni and Thalia, Heretic Cathar should go in. Both are versatile cards that can put some pressure. I do have a bit of a nonbo between spells matter in UWR and Thalia but it should be minor.

Perhaps some small changes could go a long way in solving this issue. Because other than that the games are very fun and I like them a lot.

Kambal is huge for this archetype in my cube, especially if focus is being made on having an effective early-ish game. All the removal and card draw and other fiddly stuff the opponent does to try and manage the situation will cost them, getting you closer to kill range.

Edit: especially against blue removal. which can be one of the biggest drains on game pace of any removal. So he'd potentially fit well as counterpoint to the UWR spells deck you mention.

 

[Erik Twice]

Let me use an example of what I mean. An Ux deck had this board:

plus Urza's token

It's not a formidable defense. And yet, the GW deck it faced couldn't get damage in. The board slowed down with most relevant threats being removed. Conversely, the GW side had the likes of Eternal Witness, mana dorks and other creatures that are powerful but don't actually deal damage. Looking at my list, all creatures are very small. There are very few creatures that can trample over Urza, for example. I think this is the core of the issue, with overly strong token makers being too much for my weak creatures. Look at red, there are 7 creatures that can get through a 0/4 and 4 of them cost 5 mana or more. Only 4 white creatures can get through it and none is cheaper than 5 mana. That's a problem. Equipment helps, but I still feel creatures in my cube are a bit too small.

Regarding ramp, I think I expected it to be weaker. Again, I expected to be more pressure than there really is. It's weird because I tested it a lot while making the cube and it was not a problem until now. But at least this guy has to go:



Kambal dissapointed me when I first included him. He never seemed to actually fire more than once. I should tweak the removal a bit, at least for hitting small guys. I think some of the cheaper guys should survive a bit more before getting killed. But perhaps it's not really an issue. I admit I miscalculated the amount of ramp that was acceptable in the cube. I expected a faster format than the one I really have.

I don't know, would you mind making me some suggestions for cuts or cards I could consider? I've often taken your cube as inspiration hahaha

 

[Erik Twice]

Ok here are some potential cuts:



Replacements:

->
->

Potential additions:



I'll change more things soon. I think Languish is too anti-aggro at 4 mana. Thoughts?

 

[sigh]

Ok so I perused the list a bit more thoroughly. It's really remarkable how similar in makeup your cube is to mine. I guess you weren't kiddin' when you said you've taken inspiration from my cube!

Firstly, what I'm noticing from the analysis section of the cube... our cubes really build around 2/2 creatures. Here's the power and toughness charts from your cube (mine is almost indistinguishable).

Spoiler: power

Spoiler: toughness

That implies that the critical toughness in the cube is 3. At toughness three a creature will be above a substantial fraction of other creatures. There are a couple other angles for playing into that critical toughness too.

In the same vein, I would put the critical power at 4. At power 4, a creature can force a double block where both of the opponents creatures die in the resulting trade.

That said, there are a lot of 1/1 tokens in your cube (and mine to some extent). That lessens the value of 3 toughness to a degree (and very much lessens the value of 1 toughness).

So I would put the most important creature stats for pushing through past a cluttered board as 4/3 and 4/4 (and up of course).

Additionally, 1 toughness is really restrictive, especially for attacking. supplanting some of the 1 toughness creatures, especially low CMC aggro creatures with 2 toughness would do two things: 1) make survivability against tokens much higher. As-is, many X/1's can barely bother attacking because they'll just get blown up by a random dork. 2) Add to the value of the above critical P/T calculation (by increasing that 2 toughness bar even higher. A couple good examples of this:


Some examples of cards that struggle here:


Another distinctly powerful P/T combo is 1/X (X greater than 1). A 1/3 is very daunting for 1/1 tokens to face off against because there will be quite a bit of attrition when attacking into that sort of creature. A few more +1/+1 and +1/+0 effects can help with this dilemma.

A card effect that can help black fight the X/2 paradigm:


Here are some cards that I see as hindering the situation or seeming a little out of place:
glare of subdual This card typically doesn't make things go faster for anybody. All around annoying IMO
prophetic prism Is this pulling it's weight? It seems a little out of place next to some of the artifacts and general power level of the cube
xathrid necromancer Is there a humans deck? I see a couple other cards relating to humans. Sits on the board at the non-standout P/T of 2/2 as discussed above, and fills the board with even more of the same. Doesn't really seem to push towards a victory, rather helping keep the board clogged with that magical 2/2.
paradise druid This card seems to me to fit poorly in at least two ways. Adds to the very high ramp count in green while being poorly P/T'ed at 2/1.
stinkweed imp do your graveyard decks really look for this sort of dredger? annoying, relatively weak body that nonetheless is great at blocking tokens.
kitchen finks I don't see any combo with this, unless I'm missing it. A very annoying card to push past. Definitely helps a stalled boardstate.
sram's expertise or secure the wastes both seem to me like token generators above and beyond what is really needed, and they do it in a relatively boring/boardclogging manner. Sram's is the more interesting of the two I suppose do to the free cast.
Elves of deep shadow just selecting what seems to me to be the weakest of this bunch. A lot of green ramp in this cube. A lot.
moment's peace does this actually provide tangible benefit to any deck's running it? or mostly just ends up stalling out a game a couple turns longer?

One hole in effects I'm seeing is creature buffing in red, or at least for red. You have a suite of affects generating 1/1's in red like young pyromancer, seasoned pyromancer, saheeli, sublime artificer, and hordeling outburst. Mostly part of a UR spell-token sorta deck. They could really use some in-color ways to boost their attacks.

For example (not necessarily good enough, but a nice example)


Another battlecry example that is good egainst tokens (but would struggle against 2/2s) is


Of course there's always the classic effects:

 

[Erik Twice]

Haha, I wasn't kidding! I think Inscho's cube is the largest influence on mine, then yours.

Your analysis is spot on. I knew I had a 2/2 format but I did not see all the implications of that. In fact, I can see the issue comparing your list and mine. While your list is similar, you do run more cards that can attack into smaller cards or block without trading. The difference isn't large, but it exists. For example, Renegade Railer is very strong. But it couldn't do anything but bring back another 2 mana creature that didn't do anything either. I think three of the examples you've mentioned are easily replaceable and I'll look into it.

Regarding tokens and dorks, I made a full list of all cards that either create small tokens or can be sacrificed with little loss. And there's too many of them. Way too many. I added token support under the belief I needed more than I thought. I failed to count small dorks that could be done away easily or had value mostly for their extra body. For example, in white:



I think I can cut two cards here at little loss. Probably Emeria Angel (An unimportant goodstuff card) and Secure the Wastes (Great design, but it could be other cards and work as well). I'm revising other colors in a similar way and seeing if I can get away with less.

Regarding your suggestions:

Glare of subdual I like this card a lot as a fair oppossition. I haven't found it to slow the game down. Rather, it takes away key blockers and allows the game to progress.
Xathrid necromancer There is indeed a humans deck, or humans theme in general. Humans have a crossover with sacrifice, blink and aggro. I like Necromancer because he fills several roles. He supports aggro against wraths, supports sacrifice themes and is two bodies in one on its own. It promotes more aggressive play, so it hasn't slowed down the game despite its size. Note that human decks often pack ways to make a 2/2 more meaningful.
Kitchen finks There are actually several combos with this, though it provides support in countless ways to practically every archetype. It can suicide twice at a minimun. I've also found the life gain acceptable and not oppressive. Uro is far worse in that regard, even when it only works once.
Sram's expertise or Secure the wastes I'll cut Secture the Wastes per above.

Prophetic prism This is a random support artifact that could be cut.
Stinkweed imp This is probably no longer needed given the support elsewhere in the cube.
Moment's peace This card is actually very strong. However, aggro is not as strong as it was in my first versions of the cube so this is not needed.

Paradise Druid
Elves of deep shadow I'm just uncertain of how much ramp I should run. I used to have fewer but decks had problems getting enough pieces to work.

You are also spot on about red needing a way in colour to get a buff. There's support in white and in Rakdos but nothing on the colour itself. I'm a bit torn. I only know a couple cards like that and they all seem either busted or too weak. Hellrider is busted. Beyond busted. I knew it was and then played it in cube draft. Easiest Lava Axe ever. Like you say, Hero of Oxid Ridge will die in every attack, which is pointless.

Anyways, it has been massively helpful. Thank you Sigh

 

[Erik Twice]

More changes:

Cuts



Replacements:

->
->
->
->
->


Cards that could go or change:



Stuff I'm considering but that I don't know if it's actually good:



I'll be honest, I think my graveyard/discard synergies are held together by cello tape.

I've also noticed my red curve is awful. I have nine 3-drops and only five 2-drops.

 

[LadyMapi]

Why are you cutting Search for Tomorrow? It's one of my favorite cards ever, so why are you hating on good ol' Four Lands On Turn 3?

 

[Erik Twice]

Why are you cutting Search for Tomorrow? It's one of my favorite cards ever, so why are you hating on good ol' Four Lands On Turn 3?

Turns out dumping 5 mana spells when your opponent has 2 lands is kind of busted

 

[LadyMapi]

Yeah, that's true...

 

[Nanonox]

I'll be honest, I think my graveyard/discard synergies are held together by cello tape.

I don't know about that, at least for Rakdos and Dimir. I just drafted what I consider a solid aggressive deck with discard/gy synergies:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5ffe40c3ba52d4106398e10c

I also saw different avenues I could have gone down during the draft.

Here is a GY control-combo deck I just drafted too:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5ffe4874ba52d4106399b24c

Sure there is some overlap in the decks, but they do completely different things.

 

[Erik Twice]

Thanks a lot Nanonox, seeing those decks help. I'm afraid I'm not the best drafter so I tend to believe I need more "synergy" than I actually do. For example, I think I need more discard outlets than it's really necessary.

Still, I would see if I can tighten things up. I like how Body Double has become a staple.

 

[Dom Harvey]

When I draft your Cube I always feel the graveyard stuff is deep and enticing. I just drafted a pool that could support two different flavours of the same deck (RUG with Rielle etc was another option but lack of fixing limited that)

UG: https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5ffef8593227c4089e46a688
RG: https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5ffef8c43227c4089e46a9ef

And I dredged up these beauties from a while back:

BG: https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5f968f03a3411e2a47cd341d
BR: https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5f969015a3411e2a47cd4c7a

That BR deck in particular is a model for how I want that archetype to look

 

[Erik Twice]

I'm really glad to hear that Dom. I love seeing your decks, they are very inspiring. So yeah, perhaps things are better than I thought! I actually went and built the non-red decks you build and they are a ton of fun. I'll see how I can improve things a bit while keeping those decks in the cube.

 

[Erik Twice]

More changes and cuts. Most of these cards aren't really played or truly necessary:



Metallic Mimic is just more human fodder. The deck needs no additional help. There are several cool combos with Kitchen Finks and you could build a deck around them, sure, but that's an interaction only I would know. The idea that you could use it for thopters also proved to be greedy, it's a win-more play.

Fire Imp is dissapointing as a 2/1. I added it as a potential blink target but I haven't seen any blink decks be particularly interested in it. Normally, if you are splashing, you can find better targets. After all, this is a cube that runs Guilded Drake. The rest have just been underwhelming or, in the case of Retrofitter Foundry, yet another tokens card I'm cutting.

I've been looking at big green creatures to replace Avenger of Zendikar and Hornet Queen but they are all...rough. I like Thorn Mammoth, but I'm not sure if it's actually good.

Either way, I feel these small changes are improving the cube. For starters, I get that "shrinking the size" feeling where you cut a card and you don't miss it. I also feel excited about seeing some of these new additions. However, it's difficult to add new cards. Despite appeareances, the Magic card pool isn't that large and I don't know as many cards as you guys do. I feel there are perfect cards for my cube out there, I just don't know about them.

 

[Erik Twice]

I've been thinking more about white four drops with a look towards midrange and control. Since I'm making proxies, I'm thinking of printing all the candidates and testing them out:



Mangara is kind of bullshit. However, I've gone through my decks and all have ways around him. I'm ok if it draws a few cards, my biggest issue is the stonewalling and

Trove Warden is probably the closest replacement to the Angel but it also seems higher power. No tokens, though. I do like that it seems to have some synergies despits its good-stuff shell.

Ojutai Exemplars was a great recommendation but I need to see it in play to see if hard to kill plus lifelink is as annoying as I think.

Other than that, I'm seeing if I can make some cuts instead of making replacements. Perhaps going to 50 cards per colour instead of 52 would be nice.

 

[Nanonox]

Out of these options, I think I like the Exemplars the most.

Mangara I see mostly as an aggro hoser, The cat is cool, but I am worried about removal spells that actually exile him (since you won't get anything back).
Exemplars can be tough to remove, but aggro has outs:
- They play them turn 4, they can't protect it. You have a window for a clean removal.
- They play them with mana up. You can still target them with removal and they blink them, but they ETB tapped. You have a clear attack.
- They decide to race and attack you. They still need to cast a spell to activate the lifelink which isn't always going to be the case.

Whatever happens, I feel there is some interesting play to it if your removal is capable of answering them.