Erik's "The cool side of Magic" cube

Thanks a lot for the thoughts inscho. I think you are right on all counts. Int he end my cube is very much a typical cube with some care put into archetypes. And I can see the historical angle is pretty much a novelty, though I don't play Magic enough for it to matter. Like you say, the easiest path is to simply cut the losers. It's worse than lowering the power level, but I'm pretty happy with how decks turn out and the matches are fun. I'm mostly going to play at a boardgame club or with my friends and most people aren't as invested or as good as you or I might be.

For me the biggest issue is that the draft railroads you into the same archetypes, even if there are equally good archetypes available. Part of this is just the result of me drafting my own cube on my own but it's dissapointing how easy is to move into Mardu Aggro compared to Tempo or traditional control.

So yeah, I think I'll just tweak green and remove some of the most questionable archetype support. I can also take out some standouts and tone down removal a notch, but I don't want to make very large changes at this point. I've been working on this cube for months and months and I just want it done. I think it's easier for me to just finish this cube and start another if I want to make large changes.

Regarding Simic and Selesnya, I think the issue is green. White is very powerful in my cube and it has a lot of room for support. Simic is a naturally good colour pair yet I never get those "ramp into Fact or Fiction" decks. Seems I would need to work on that.


To be clear, I wasn't dismissing the value of nostalgia, or maintaining a high power level....or trying to criticize your list. I just noticed a slight discontinuity. So I'm sorry if I came across that way.

(I'm a big fan of ahadabans' Retro Combo Cube which is nostalgia ultra)

Just thinking about an easy way to upgrade green....Have you considered:



over Overrun? or maybe



Recurs with Emry, great with pod/blink/tinker/welders, etc. You lose an iconic card, but either would be a strong pull to draft green over mardu
 
No, don't worry! You were very kind and helpful. I'm just agreeing with you. I agree think that trying to keep historic value is always going to come with a cost. The ideal cube from a game-design perspective is not going to include cards because to include, say, Swords to Plowshares because it's historically important.

In other words, I think you are right that the best way to improve my cube is to lower the power level to increase archetype and colour bleed. I just think I've put a lot of effort into this project and it's better to close and perhaps start another from scratch it than rework it completely.

Regarding the green cards you mention, I really like Verdurous Gearhulk. But it just reads broken to me. At worst it's an 5 mana 8/8. And perhaps I just think that big numbers are scarier than they actually are, but I see it and it reads more broken than most of the very broken cards I already run. I mean, I understand on a theorical level that it's not much better and probably even weaker than either Torrential Gearhulk or Noxious Gearhulk but those cost one more mana and aren't as easily ramped by elves. I just see it coming down and creating an unwinnable position because Wizards wanted to sell packs.

But perhaps I'm wrong. I mean, is it really worse than:

?

For whatever reason it feels stronger than all those. In fact, while Hornet Queen is "GRBS", it's not actually great in my cube because it's in either all-in reanimator or very reliant on ramp. I know there's a similar card to Gearhulk, but it's not an artifact and being an artifact is what's so cool about it.

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I think that Earthshaker Giant is the best fit of all Overrun effects. It's just two green instead of three and the benefits of being a creature are compensated by one extra mana. I just don't know if I like Overrun enough. I really only run it because I feel I should include the effect on my cube and I like the historicity of it. But I'm Mr Durdle and I don't like any card that actually finishes the game, no matter how deserved it is, natch.
 
I've gone through the cube and cut some cards that were redundant or weren't working properly. Not in-depth, just some small changes. Here are some of them:

t

These are all good cards that found themselves into too tight competition with others. Reclamation, for example, ended up feeling a luxury with Volrath's Stronghold and four reanimator effects plus Alesha and Genesis in the cube. Valorous Stance was a second-tier spell and Saproling Burst was just a less exploitable Deranged Hermit.

---
I've decided to go a bit powermax and replace my losers with goodstuff. The idea is to see the effect they have on different colours and archetypes so I can tweak from there. This a forceful approach compared to lowering power-level but I think I can make it work:




Regarding my discard themes, I think I can cut some of the losses while mantaining a good chunk of the advantages. Simply put, many of the supposed payoffs and enablers never got played. The archetypes existed and had wide support, it's just that nobody cared about the lesser support because they had enough to go around for their purporses.
 
Let's explore this a bit: Why did I start getting cool graveyard/discard-based decks the moment I cut all the support cards? The answer is easy: Those cards weren't useful and instead of helping me create new archetypes were distracting me from them.

For example, I was running too many discard-heavy creatures including three Wild Mongrel variants:



How many is a deck going to run? 1, perhaps 2? There was no reason to run all three plus Cryptbreaker and several others. Whenever I did, I ended up with a bad deck. It's the same situation I had with Phyrexian Reclamation, it was yet another synergy pick in a cube full of them. And it's not so much a matter of power level but simply of having too many synergy cards.
 
Cutting down the losers and shoring up major archetype weaknesses through power cards has been a real breakthrough. I'm still seeing exactly the same archetypes as before, but I spend less cards doing so. This liberates space to support more archetypes and improve the cube.

Some changes:

1) I added some planeswalkers, despite my general opposition to them. The reason is that Magic as it stands today is a tempo-based game and the traditional control strategies I had in my cube just couldn't compete. Perhaps the best example of this is Pernicious Deed. That card is extremely strong and yet it keeps dropping in value thanks to its reactive nature and high mana cost.



I did not intend to end up with a planeswalker in every color nor include three of the original walkers, but I ended up naturally in them. They are weaker and with tighter loyalty totals than many of the modern designs which soak up a lot of damage and produce dull games. I'm not as fond of Garruk because he's very efficient and good-stuffy and ends up being more of a crutch than an actual solution.

I'm also less afraid of planeswalkers because my cube is very aggressive on the board. All decks end up playing a lot of 2 and 3 drops and 1 drops are powerful and not poisonous. It should be difficult to keep planeswalkers on the board without significant support. Only issue are tokens which are very abundant in my cube. However, token producers are not in the colours with planeswalkers except Garruk.

Liliana is a bit weak, but I like the design and I wanted her or another woman. Sadly, her 3-drop versions are extremely strong and I'm not comfortable running them.

2) I've been replacing the losers with better, but still synergy-heavy cards like:



I'm going to keep working to make this kind of support more common, broadening the archetypes rather than having the same few cards pull up everything.

I've also added cards to better support control, like Exclude.

3) I've reworked green entirely. I removed cards like:




In favour of



--

Now the cube feels fresh and natural in ways it didn't before. Good cards like Bazaar Trademage, Goblin Welder and Dismissive Pyromancer now see themselves in decks more often and have a more defined role in each decks and in games as a whole. Still, there are several cards I'm not very fond of and plenty of room for improvement. For example, I'm still not sure what to do with one of my 3-mana green slots and I think I run a few too many white creatures, specially in the 1-2 range.



But overall, I'm very hapyp with how things have turned out. I wish I had done this sooner.
 
?

You could definitely use a little more art/enchant removal in green imo
More removal in green is always welcome. However, I would prefer to run another 3-drop and have Beast Withinor whatever in the cube. The issue is fitting the latter and that I'm not sure if the card is actually good or not.

Perhaps I should remove Seasons Past because I never actually manage to build a good deck around it. I don't even know what it truly looks like.
 
If you’re looking for the Reclamation Sage effect in green, may i suggest:

I used to love Rec Sage, but that effect I think plays better without the ETB effect dictating when you play your 3-drop duder.
 
I decided to slap down a random 3-drop and just add Beast Within. Which I'm sure is a bad card, but oh well.

To be honest, while there are a couple cards I might cut or replace here and there, I'm very happy with how things turned out. IT HAS BEEN A YEAR. A YEAR OF DESIGN.
 
I was bored and decided to try a bit of +1/+1 counters/Selesnya tokens subtheme and it works very well!










Please ignore the awful Trading Post, but the rest seems fun and competitive. What do you think of this direction?
 
Helm and Glare are nasty in a token deck like this!
They really are! I'm actually glad Helm is making its way into more decks because it's a very interesting card. And while it's very good, it costs 6 mana and a creature before it does anything. So I'm very happy about it.
 
It's good you cut Oracle of Mul Daya, that card is very bad in most cubes.

I think cutting The First Iroan Games is a bit of a mistake. That card is a great way for midrange green decks to apply early pressure and re-fuel their hands. While the card can sometimes be blanked by the opponents, I think the ceiling of a 3 mana 4/4 which draws two cards is worth the downside of it sometimes eating a removal spell or two. The card is really good and I can't say enough good things about it. If you're short a green 3 slot, I'd give the games a second chance.
 
Thanks for the thought Trainmaster.

Oracle was indeed the wrong card for my cube. I mean, my cube is pretty much done at 6-7 mana, there's no use for more than that. And with its feeble body, it was not actually a good control card. I'm not getting much mileage of Oracle of Mul Daya, either, but I'm not happy with any of the 4-drops I've seen. Ripjaw Raptor could fill the slot but it's a bit of a dull card. It's surprising how small the actual card pool is sometimes.

Regarding the Iroan Games, there were a couple issues with the card. The main one is that it's a 3-coster and the 3-cost slot is stacked. All my green decks end up with more 3s that they can actually run, be it actual green cards, splashes or whatever. And they tend to be more interesting and synergy-based than the Games. Green is my tightest guild and I would actually love to streamline it a little but I'm not sure what to cut. Games was actually one of the easier ones, it would be more difficult to justify other cuts to slot it back in.

Still, I'm more than open to suggestions.


Some possible cuts:



Elspeth fights for a heavily contested 4-slot but it's redundant in token decks and not particularly great for control. Perhaps I should look into another planeswalker.

Cataclysm is a great card that is starting to drift towards low-use. White is not a great midrange colour in my cube, which I would like to change.

Death Cloud pushes black towards heavy artifact decks but it feels redundant with Upheaval, Wildfire and other similar effects in my cube. I'm thinking of running Pox instead.

Bramble Sovereign is a powerful card that it's just there as the best, most interesting 4-drop amongst the not very interesting green 4s.

Garruk Wildspeaker is a great, versatile planeswalker. However, it's not as synergy-based as Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and I really don't want decks running both because the token spam gets very annoying.

--

I also need a couple cards in white, red and black to fill up to 52 cards but I'm not sure what to run.
 
Thanks for the thought Trainmaster.

Regarding the Iroan Games, there were a couple issues with the card. The main one is that it's a 3-coster and the 3-cost slot is stacked. All my green decks end up with more 3s that they can actually run, be it actual green cards, splashes or whatever. And they tend to be more interesting and synergy-based than the Games. Green is my tightest guild and I would actually love to streamline it a little but I'm not sure what to cut. Games was actually one of the easier ones, it would be more difficult to justify other cuts to slot it back in.

When I look at your green 3 drops, Evolution Sage kind of pops out as being a bit bad. The card is middling in counters decks and middling everywhere else. Your 3-drop slot already has Rishkar, Peema Renegade, which is probably the best counters payoff that slot has to offer. I think you might be happier with another counters enabler like the Games rather than a counter enhancer like Evolution Sage. Just food for thought.

Some possible cuts:



Elspeth fights for a heavily contested 4-slot but it's redundant in token decks and not particularly great for control. Perhaps I should look into another planeswalker.

My experience with Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis has been very positive so far. It's a great card for helping white weenie style decks close out the game. The fact that it has escape means that it can bolster aggro in it's worst matchup, midrange, by providing a constant source of card advantage. I view this card less as a token engine or control finisher and more like a white aggro version of Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath: very grindy and never dying.

I also need a couple cards in white, red and black to fill up to 52 cards but I'm not sure what to run.

I think if you're trying to do some aggro decks in those color, adding some more 1-drops would be a wise decision. I'm a really big fan of Faerie Guidemother in white, as it's both a turn 1 play and a late game pump spell. For red, I think adding Soul-Scar mage would be interesting. It helps support your spells deck and lets burn shrink creatures that are otherwise a bit too large for them to otherwise kill.
 
Hey, thanks for the thoughts Trainmaster. Evolution Sage is a test, mostly to see which direction I take Selesnya and if I dip into artifact support for green or not. Note that while I do have plenty of cards that work with with tokens by giving them +1/+1 counters, I don't have any cards that actually care about counters other than Evolution Sage.

Regarding Elspeth, that's my issue. It's a curve-topped in aggro but I'm not looking for an aggro card in that slot. So far White-based aggro and tempo decks are some of the best decks in my cube, so I don't think they need to be boosted more. I'm mostly looking for interesting spells or good meat and potatoes stuff.
 
A couple days ago MC Usher drafted my cube a bunch of times. But it was not my cube as it stands now, but the old version I have on Cubetutor and which I haven't updated in quite a while. At first, I was sad because he did a lot of drafts and he has helped me a lot in the past. I felt I had wasted his work. However, looking at the decklists I saw proof I've been improving my cube.

First, there are no cards I've taken out in all but one of his decklists. All the changes I've made have not affected the real depth of the cube. Quite simply, the "losers" were never put into decklists and hence weren't missed.

Second, the deck that did use cards I took out was a very neat WG Lands deck and it only had three cards taken out. Out of them, only one was truly important (Mirari's Wake).

Third, I've found success by simplying some archetypes or reducing their number a bit. For example, I tried out Upheaval but I didn't found it added anything new to the cube so I ended up giving the slot to Laboratory Maniac.

I'm very happy with how things are turning out. I only need 2 red cards, 1 white and a bit of tweaking. I no longer feel I have "free" slots or highly questionable picks. Everything works well and I'm happy.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
That's me! The drafting experience actually felt better with that list but I'm pretty sure that's the CubeTutor AI rather than any of the changes; as you said, most of those lists would remain intact
 
That's me! The drafting experience actually felt better with that list but I'm pretty sure that's the CubeTutor AI rather than any of the changes; as you said, most of those lists would remain intact
The CubeTutor AI is better. I should actually port all the changes so I can try with those bots. The CubeCobra one seems to have a very short "memory". If I don't draft an archetype or card in a couple passes the bots start to forget about it. So if I happen to draft a couple tempo decks I start seeing Garruk Wildspeaker wheel which just shouldn't happen.

I think I'll just complete the small changes I want to do and port everything over. Now, any suggestions for white or red cards? :)
 
He’s extremely difficult to remove outside of exile/sacrifice effects and beats for 3 as a 2-drop, plus his discard outlet effect is almost completely unique in White. Most of the time your optimal play on defense against him is simply to let him swing in until you have an X/4 blocker.
That said, your cube may have enough exile/sacrifice to nullify him, so he may depend more on the discard value synergy.
 
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