General Fight Club

[Goldenpineapple]

I can't wait to Soulfire Grand Master + Blasphemous Act people too

Heh, and you can buy it back pretty easily thanks to Act's ability... salt on the wound. Seriously though that's a pretty cheap million health.

I swapped my crater Hellion to Caldera when I purged Echo from my list and it's been ok- the extra point really makes a difference and now the "fake wildfire deck" (aka ramp with burn spells) has a small hoop to jump through to make their wrath work.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Damnit guys I'm stupposed to be testing blue aggro decks, not testing wildfire cards!

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Analogy time:

Sunblast Angel is to Onderzeeboot as Crater Hellion is to FlowerSunRain

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I don't get it. Crater Hellion is a 12 mana evasionless 6/6 that conditionally wipes the board (in a color that generally doesn't even want that effect). Please tell me you guys aren't running titans because they laugh at this guy. Inferno Titan for example is 100 times more unfair.

I'm not running titans. Well, I run Sun Titan, but I'm having doubts about that card. My other red six drop at the moment is Conquering Manticore, which isn't really all that great probably, but it's fun.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm not running titans. Well, I run Sun Titan, but I'm having doubts about that card. My other red six drop at the moment is Conquering Manticore, which isn't really all that great probably, but it's fun.

I have Conquering Manticore on my list of cards I wanted to try and fit in. I recently went through each color with the intent to give them better identities. One thing I like for red is threaten effects, but man is that a shallow well. This guy came up for that and I really wanted to give him a shot, but I just don't think I can make that work without running a lot of jank, so I abandoned the idea.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, I ran Conquering Manticore early on, but it wasn't a good fit in the six drop slot. At that spot, creatures need to be strong defensively, as the mana cost is exclusively in the domain of control or midrange. Manticore wants to be aggressive, but Zealous Conscripts has shown us that the maximum mana you can charge for that type of effect on a body is five.

If I were to run just one titan, it'd probably be Sun Titan. He isn't inherently busted on his own, and makes you work to get max value from his effect. Every other titan is a little too 'easy' to get going.

 

[ahadabans]

I'd probably run Frost Titan before Sun (I'm currently not running any). Frosty is the only one who doesn't net you a full card (or the equivalent of a card). His effect is good and can be very powerful in some match ups, but the other titans are just better. Even Sun Titan… all you need to do is play magic and have a graveyard. The odds of you not having something to put into play with him is pretty low in my (albeit limited) experience with the card.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I run sun titan, the effect is super sweet, and you do need to build around him to get value. There are also a number of matchups where he has been actually bad.

That being said, if your format is less tempo, more grind, or has a lot of mana acceleration, I suppose he could be a bit much.

I've thought about frost titan; the effect seems strong but beatable.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Frost Titan is a pain in the neck, though I guess that depends on the removal you run. I run somewhat downgraded removal, with only very few hard removal spells below 3 mana. Anyway, I think Keiga, the Tide Star and Sharding Sphinx, my current blue sixes, are more interesting to play with, and I think the sixes in other colors ought to be bigger than blue's sixes.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, I'd run Frost Titan before judging him. On paper, he looks fairly unimpressive, and I remember being nonplussed when he was spoiled back in 2010. When he comes down, though, his actual effect on any given board state tends to be dominating. He can either freeze the best opposing creature - which is a defensive ability I'd put right up there with any six drop's - or he can alternate between two lesser targets and remove all capability to effectively block. This might sound hard to believe, but I think he could be the third best titan in cube, after Grave and Inferno, and arguably the best finisher in blue, in contention with Consecrated Sphinx.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

In all honesty I think Primeval Titan is the least obnoxious in cube. The other colors get a HOLY COW IS THAT A 6/6 FOR SIX WITH A RELEVANT STATIC ABILITY AND A BONKERS TRIGGERED ABILITY, but for green, a 6/6 trample for 4GG is actually pretty normal, and abusing the triggered ability is a lot harder. Of course fetching two lands each turn is still bonkers, but not nearly as harrowing as the Grixis titans. Sun Titan has by far the coolest triggered ability, but the 6/6 vigilance body is really obnoxious. It blocks way too well, and it usually kills your opponent to fast. I would love for the Sun Titan ability to end up on a body with less power and without vigilance so you can have a bit more fun reanimating stuff and actually have to choose whether you want to attack or hold the fort. Like the 3/6 lifelink version I put up in the custom card thread.

 

[Eric Chan]

Right, the power of Prime Time all depends on what sweet utility lands you pick up during the draft. For those of us who run a utility draft - where you can pick up the likes of Kessig Wolf Run (!) or Volrath's Stronghold (!!) without using an actual draft pick - his upside becomes a decent bit higher. If you don't run a separate land draft, though, I think he goes somewhere from "uber-overpowered" to merely "very strong".

I don't think you're wrong in that each of the titans, with their 6/6 bodies and combat keywords - never mind their triggered abilities - are all a little much to stomach. When I used to run the entire pack of titans, the whole cube tended to revolve around them, as well as the race to six mana. That in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but it got a bit tiresome after about two years, and it's been a breath of fresh air not having to dread seeing your midrange opponent accelerate into their sixth land drop.

 

[CML]

prime time is easily the most fun in cube because it's a build-around. with the funsies land draft, for example, sometimes you'll play humility and lose to their wolf run

 

[GenericZero]

Would you cube Sunblast Angel or Magister of Worth? Cause this is worse.

I'd cube the angel because she takes a bit of set up. I don't currently have her though. I dislike that she can easily be a one-sided wrath, but the stats are fair. Magister is also pretty unexciting imo. If I want a red six drop , Soul of Shandalar is fine in my book.

 

[Jonas]

Red wants it if you don't want red to be the boring color that only burns though.

I don't get it. Crater Hellion is a 12 mana evasionless 6/6 that conditionally wipes the board (in a color that generally doesn't even want that effect). Please tell me you guys aren't running titans because they laugh at this guy. Inferno Titan for example is 100 times more unfair.

I think sweepers are critical because you've got to have answers to all the CA army-in-can guys running rampant these days. Otherwise it just comes down to who builds their army fastest, or who gets the most broken pieces first. I'm all about preventing as many non-games as possible. And to do that I think you need a critical mass of answer cards. The more the merrier.

I'm sure there's an upper limit for removal somewhere but wizards hasn't printed enough cubable ones yet as far as I'm concern (at least for artifacts and enchantments). My 2 cents.

 

[ahadabans]

Making red a more interesting color I think is certainly desirable. I run Crater Hellion because many red decks in my group end up control/combo (guys in my group have an aversion to hard aggro anyway, so that evolution had to happen out of necessity). My post was more in response to those implying Crater Hellion was too powerful. I just don't see how that's true unless you are running a really low powered environment.

In that vein though (of wanting to make red more interesting), I've been wanting to take it ever further. My first thought was to push threaten effects which would pair nicely with the sacrifice theme already present in my cube, but there just isn't enough to work with there IMO. So I'm looking at storm (probably a really bad idea) and/or bolstering token strategies. Token strategies though I have found can be problematic to meta balance since they require more sweepers. And sweepers tend to be big synergy killers. So it's a hard balance to find honestly - how do I keep tokens from being too strong while keeping some other more fragile strategies playable (need more Ratchet Bomb type cards I guess).

Red wants so very much to be one dimensional unfortunately. It feels like a struggle sometimes to fight that trend. Same thing in green. All green is really good at is ramp and big dumb creatures. What else can you do with that color?

What I'd love to find a way to do is support true tribal themes without it being poisony. Draft one and get multiple picks? Balancing that would be a nightmare I think (though I know some guys do this already so it must be possible).

 

[James Stevenson]

So I'm looking at storm (probably a really bad idea)

I'm wondering if having more cards to replay cards in your graveyard is the way to go. I already run a few guys that return instants and sorceries, and there's some more I wouldn't mind running. Then Yawgmoth's Will and potentially Past in Flames. Now your storm deck doesn't need to go off in one turn, you can go for another run in a later turn. A deck like this won't need to be completely uninteractive, it might need to protect itself with a control shell. Now the question is whether this necessitates artifact acceleration. Is running a few signets going to be such a bad thing? I'm really thinking about trying this out. The idea needs some more thought though. Not just by me.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I run a fairly successful artifact theme in red, with Goblin Welder and Daretti, Scrap Savant, looking to make room for Scrap Mastery because so far the archetype is fun to draft and interesting to play. The draw + discard effects that red has been enjoying lately really help out here as well, and it plays wildly different from the aggro burn archetype! while retaining some overlap in cards (Pyrite Spellbomb, discard + draw effects, equipment, burn (for different reasons)). If you want to, you could combine it with a Wildfire archetype, which makes mana rocks interesting in two red-based strategies.

 

[James Stevenson]

If you want to, you could combine it with a Wildfire archetype, which makes mana rocks interesting in two red-based strategies.

I like that idea! I run Upheaval, do you think it's going to be obnoxious with better ramp?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Upheaval is a p1p1 in Wizard's holiday cube. That should probably tell you something about Upheaval and better ramp

I only run "fair" accelleration, i.e. 2 to 3 cost mana rocks that tap for . I don't run Wilfdire or Upheaval though, so my experience with those cards in cube is limited.

 

[James Stevenson]

Upheaval is a p1p1 in Wizard's holiday cube. That should probably tell you something about Upheaval and better ramp

I only run "fair" accelleration, i.e. 2 to 3 cost mana rocks that tap for . I don't run Wilfdire or Upheaval though, so my experience with those cards in cube is limited.

Yeah I'd happily cut it for storm support, it was just for fun.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm wondering if having more cards to replay cards in your graveyard is the way to go. I already run a few guys that return instants and sorceries, and there's some more I wouldn't mind running. Then Yawgmoth's Will and potentially Past in Flames. Now your storm deck doesn't need to go off in one turn, you can go for another run in a later turn. A deck like this won't need to be completely uninteractive, it might need to protect itself with a control shell. Now the question is whether this necessitates artifact acceleration. Is running a few signets going to be such a bad thing? I'm really thinking about trying this out. The idea needs some more thought though. Not just by me.

Thanks for the suggestions. I saw Past in Flames and was thinking it might be a tad narrow (and expensive). But maybe not. I have a strong graveyard theme everywhere, so pushing that more is enticing.

I've tried testing a small storm package, and even building the best possible deck I can't make anything consistently fast enough. I don' t have enough mana or enough ways to get around it. I think storm is more supportable with fast mana, but I don't want to run that because of what it does to the meta overall. So I'm stuck right now. I like combo a lot but how do I enable it in a way that doesn't destroy the rest of my cube?

Edit: On the topic of tribal… I was looking at all the elf cards and I really think you could support a strong elf deck without running tons of narrow janky cards. It would be tricky drafting it (wheel the lords obviously), but I know at least one player in my group that would have a field day if he could make a true elf deck. That has been a complaint of his - he can't draft the kind of decks he likes building. I'm trying to address that without breaking things too badly or making drafts super myopic (where everyone just drafts their favorite arch type and there's no competition for cards). So many things to consider.

 

[Diakonov]

Storm is wicked fun, but I think you'll find it difficult to make it competitive without being poisony. I think it would be best suited for P9 cubes.

I've also been doing an artifacts theme in red like Onder's.

I haven't played around with tribal too much but squadron picks of cards has been a success here. Balancing it hasn't been as difficult as one might think. Sometimes it makes life easier because it lets certain cards BECOME more balanced since it's a double (like Goblin Welder: having two separate ones can be poisony and a bit clunky, but a single double-pick has been perfect). I've made several aggro 1-drops into double-picks so that aggro can get what it needs without cluttering up the cube with cards that most drafters have no interest in.

Going tribal beyond humans and zombies might be tricky without knocking the power level of your cube down a couple ticks, even with utilizing double-picks.

Edit: on second thought, maybe you could get storm to work by focusing on Empty the Warrens specifically and overlapping as much as possible with "spells matters" archetypes. Free/cantrippy spells, etc. probably include 2 or three separate copies of Empty, or a single double-pick. Much easier than the other storm spells because you don't need to go as high to make it worth it, synergies with Purphoros, Goblin Bombardment, team prowess, etc. Now I kinda want to experiment with that.

 

[ahadabans]

Unfortunately, the storm deck I really want to make happen is the dream halls / mind's desire version. The problem I'm having is it just takes too many turns to go off. Against any kind of deck that applies pressure, you won't live long enough. With P9, this definitely would work. But I'm not going to run P9 just to make this deck happen. So not sure what to do at the moment. This may just need to remain a pipe dream.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Years ago I really tried to push Dream Halls and it was always terrible. But this was pre-Griselbrand so maybe it's slightly more viable now.