General Fight Club

[ahadabans]

if you limit yourself to the cards you can afford and you cannot afford cards you would like to run then you cannot really do design.

not to make an auto-da-fe out of this but jesus, dude, just make some proxies and your cube will be 1,000 times more fun, it's even more arbitrary than not adding a second Birthing Pod

Good grief. So adding goyf to my cube makes it 1000 times more fun? No cube is complete without Force of Will? Wasteland?

I've got 1000's of magic cards to trade to get what I need. If I wanted all those cards in my cube, I could trade and get them all. For free. But some cards just aren't worth it to me. I run the full cycle of fetchlands that cost $100 a piece because I think they are too important to ignore on price alone (and I did have to trade to get them). I've made the necessary sacrifices to get key cards.

But goyf? Who gives a shit about that card. I fucking even have one.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Good grief. So adding goyf to my cube makes it 1000 times more fun? No cube is complete without Force of Will? Wasteland?

I've got 1000's of magic cards to trade to get what I need. If I wanted all those cards in my cube, I could trade and get them all. For free. But some cards just aren't worth it to me. I run the full cycle of fetchlands that cost $100 a piece because I think they are too important to ignore on price alone (and I did have to trade to get them). I've made the necessary sacrifices to get key cards.

But goyf? Who gives a shit about that card. I fucking even have one.

No individual card makes a cube thousands of times better, but you notice the difference between force of will and foil. Between guildgates and shocklands. Between Bad River and Polluted Delta

We want you to add or remove cards from your cube because of how they play and interact, not because of whatever BS starcity says

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I want players to recognize the cards they're drafting, so art is important. I don't want to use paper proxies that look shitty, so printing proxies isn't really an option. I can't spend ridiculous amounts of money on cards, so buying fetches isn't really an option, let alone duals. Without duals fetches become less important as well (even though they still would be really nice), so I opt to just run more affordable cycles. Sue me

 

[Lucre]

I think goyfe is super cool. It makes it easier to play green decks that aren't just dull elf ramp decks and adds value to graves. Subtle influence on a card that is simply solid most of the time.
I'm having a hard time understanding the progress of your argument Ahadabans. So you are not cubing the goyfe you have because it costs 200 dollars and you find that against the spirit of your environment?

 

[Chris Taylor]

I want players to recognize the cards they're drafting, so art is important. I don't want to use paper proxies that look shitty, so printing proxies isn't really an option. I can't spend ridiculous amounts of money on cards, so buying fetches isn't really an option, let alone duals. Without duals fetches become less important as well (even though they still would be really nice), so I opt to just run more affordable cycles. Sue me

Go to magiccards.info, search for a random card, and hit the +1 below the art.
They really aren't that bad.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

For shock lands, we just run the guildgates and say they function like shocklands. At this point, we are so used to them that we don't even think of them as being anything but shocks. You could do the same thing for duals if that is more your cup of tea.

For the fetch lands we printed out proxies, and I will vouch they make games 1000x better. I normally hate proxies because we can never really seem to get the weight of the cards right, but its worth it in this case.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Go to magiccards.info, search for a random card, and hit the +1 below the art.
They really aren't that bad.

I tried that and they are The thickness of a sleeved card with a printed out proxy is off to a point where you can tell the difference and that just won't do. If I found a solution to that maybe I would reconsider. Hmmm... Maybe I should try printing my proxies at a copy shop with a better printer and thin paper...

If I were to print proxies however, I would totally make my own with the new (soon to be old) border and this sweet art!

 

[Laz]

I tried that and they are The thickness of a sleeved card with a printed out proxy is off to a point where you can tell the difference and that just won't do. If I found a solution to that maybe I would reconsider. Hmmm... Maybe I should try printing my proxies at a copy shop with a better printer and thin paper...

If I were to print proxies however, I would totally make my own with the new (soon to be old) border and this sweet art!

Hmm... Made me think. Magic cards are 63x88mm, this means that roughly 180 of them are required to make up 1 square meter. I grabbed a pile of cards, and my kitchen scales puts 90 of them at about 157g, so I would probably put them at ~320gsm in paper weight. This is probably too heavy for regular folks like us to print on easily, but a copy shop can probably handle that relatively easily. Maybe I will put my adhesive paper on a scale at some stage to work out what thickness card stock I should use for backing.

 

[Jonas]

I've printed straight on to magic cards that I rubbed the old card from. Was a bit of work, and I was a bit lazy so it didn't come out too well, but you get the right thickness.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Holy crap! This looks kinda awesome!

 

[Jason Waddell]

Good grief. So adding goyf to my cube makes it 1000 times more fun? No cube is complete without Force of Will? Wasteland?

I've got 1000's of magic cards to trade to get what I need. If I wanted all those cards in my cube, I could trade and get them all. For free. But some cards just aren't worth it to me. I run the full cycle of fetchlands that cost $100 a piece because I think they are too important to ignore on price alone (and I did have to trade to get them). I've made the necessary sacrifices to get key cards.

But goyf? Who gives a shit about that card. I fucking even have one.

I will just say, I didn't really start designing until I removed cost as a constraint in my cube. I was never experimenting because I spent so much time just trying to acquire certain cards. I'm not going to say it's 1000x better, but my cubing experience is so much better now that the cards I run are 100% the cards I actually want to run.

Double fetches were the best thing to ever happen to my cube and I never would have tried it if I were designing under a cost constraint.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Re: proxies, I find that you don't actually notice when you are drafting / playing with them. I notice when I sit around and just look at my cube, but when I'm trying to think strategically it never crosses my mind that my Volcanic Island or whatever is a fake. It helps that I have super high-quality fakes though.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I would OCD over bad fakes to no end. If I had high quality proxies at my disposal I would consider adding them for sure. If money wasn't a constraint I would have added Abu duals and fetches right away after all.

 

[ahadabans]

I would OCD over bad fakes to no end. If I had high quality proxies at my disposal I would consider adding them for sure. If money wasn't a constraint I would have added Abu duals and fetches right away after all.

Pretty much this. I did the proxy thing. I didn't like. Guys in my group noticed and didn't like it. I'm sorry some of you find it a "dumb" way to build a cube but those are the constraints.

I'm disappointed by some of the attitudes here honestly. Like that some of the more budget minded of us are not "designing" because we aren't making $20,000 cubes. Well, maybe you guys aren't "designing" either because you are constraining yourself to cards and rules put out by Wizards. Double standard anyone?

 

[Jason Waddell]

Pretty much this. I did the proxy thing. I didn't like. Guys in my group noticed and didn't like it. I'm sorry some of you find it a "dumb" way to build a cube but those are the constraints.

I'm disappointed by some of the attitudes here honestly. Like that some of the more budget minded of us are not "designing" because we aren't making $20,000 cubes. Well, maybe you guys aren't "designing" either because you are constraining yourself to cards and rules put out by Wizards. Double standard anyone?

If it weren't for the fact that I'd be promoting proxies on CFB I'd write a whole article on this. I think we're dealing with real differences in kind here. Real cards -> proxies is a difference in aesthetics. Real cards -> made up cards is a difference in design. I only have so much "complexity" to spend on my cube, as a designer. That's the constraint. I could use it on custom cards, but use it instead on something like utility land drafting. Cubing's barrier to entry is raised by custom cards, but not by proxies.

I'm just saying that personally, I didn't exert much mental energy on actual design before I removed the budget constraint. I was trying to figure out how to track down a Vindicate. Where I could trade off the new foil I cracked. I had an idea of a "complete" cube and I never got there with the budget restraint, so I kept myself confined. Once I removed that constraint the wheels really started properly turning.

 

[ahadabans]

I don't begrudge anyone's design parameters. The whole point of this forum (I thought) was as a refuge for the guys that didn't like being constrained (and looked down upon) by the MTGS "power max" crowd for doing things differently.

And then I come here and get the same kind of elitist attitude because my constraints don't jive with the prevailing Riptide contingent. Um…. that's some high powered hypocrisy at work there.

I don't doubt that you open up a lot of things with double fetches. I've read the articles, I've seen the benefits. I'd run more if I could bring myself to trade $800 away for 10 cards. But I do NOT believe that double fetches is the only way to create an interesting, fun and dynamic cube environment. Again, you are making the EXACT SAME argument the MTGS crowd is making when they say people are lame for not running Kalonian Hyrda or TNN (because to them power equals fun). Your cube Jason works more like a constructed environment from what I can tell. You have built out solid support for decks that plays less like limited that typical cubes. Presumably, that is your goal. That's cool, I'm sure its awesome actually (and I've stolen ideas from you in fact), but it's ultimately not where I want my cube.

Aside from not wanting to push a constructed centric cube, I simply can't buy an endless stream of $200 cards from a practical standpoint. While I can probably trade for a good number of them, I do not possess an infinite supply of tradable Magic cards. So it has to figure into what I do. You know another constraint I have? Artwork that doesn't suck. If there is an amazing card and the art is godawful, I won't run it. Because part of the cube for me is aesthetics. And you know why I'm OK with these design parameters even though they add artificial limits? Because there are 2.5 million ways to build a really fun cube that people will enjoy playing. And so I can add all the constraints I want and still have a gazillion design options.

 

[Jonas]

I don't think anyone is saying that the way you build your cube is boring. I didn't want to run proxies early on, I ran the abu duals I had, and traded for shocks. I ran the giant land from lorwyn instead of sacred foundry for ages, just because I couldn't find one to trade for. Then I started proxying, and suddenly my cube was a whole lot more fun. I've also proxied stuff like Confidant, since I like the card, but I can get a whole bunch of other cards instead, so it's pretty low on the prio list. I you don't want to run proxies, more power to you, but it does take longer to get the cube you want to have.

 

[MCMcEmcee]

Meanwhile, on an internet forum...

At the end of the day, you are the only one who can decide what goes in or out of your cube, and you don't have to defend those choices to anybody except you(r playgroup). That doesn't mean you are some cube design prodigy god genius who is above the criticism from mere mortals who can only pay/proxy their way into a facsimile of The One Cube, nor does every disagreement require martyrdom for your strict adherence to principle as the unwashed heathens trample you while they scream "try adding Tarmogoyf to your cube."

We all have our boundaries that limit how far we can take our cubes. No need to write a novel whenever someone suggests pushing those boundaries or going far beyond. Just be like "nah mang, my boundaries imo" and move on. It's an internet discussion forum, disagreements happen and it's not because the world is out to get you.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Meanwhile, on an internet forum...

At the end of the day, you are the only one who can decide what goes in or out of your cube, and you don't have to defend those choices to anybody except you(r playgroup). That doesn't mean you are some cube design prodigy god genius who is above the criticism from mere mortals who can only pay/proxy their way into a facsimile of The One Cube, nor does every disagreement require martyrdom for your strict adherence to principle as the unwashed heathens trample you while they scream "try adding Tarmogoyf to your cube."

We all have our boundaries that limit how far we can take our cubes. No need to write a novel whenever someone suggests pushing those boundaries or going far beyond. Just be like "nah mang, my boundaries imo" and move on. It's an internet discussion forum, disagreements happen and it's not because the world is out to get you.

I can't see your name without thinking of Markov chain Monte Carlo.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm all for disagreements. I don't come here to push my ideas contrary to what you might think. I actually come here to get ideas more than anything. I moved on from MTGS because everyone said the same shit over and over so there wasn't anything left else to squeeze out of it. This place has all kinds of great ideas, most of which I wouldn't have thought of on my own. It's why I post here. Lot's of clever people here honestly.

Where I get annoyed is when discussions become condescending. And they did in this thread. I apologize if I got defensive, but I have a really short fuse for that stuff. Maybe I'm just getting old (well, I am definitely getting old), but it seems like people tend to get disrespectful and don't even realize it anymore. Most of what you read in forums would not be said to someone's face. Not to turn this into a generational rant, but social skills IMO are declining rapidly in this world and that's not a good trend.

 

[CML]

Good grief. So adding goyf to my cube makes it 1000 times more fun? No cube is complete without Force of Will? Wasteland?

lol

I've got 1000's of magic cards to trade to get what I need. If I wanted all those cards in my cube, I could trade and get them all. For free. But some cards just aren't worth it to me. I run the full cycle of fetchlands that cost $100 a piece because I think they are too important to ignore on price alone (and I did have to trade to get them). I've made the necessary sacrifices to get key cards.

how courageous of you

But goyf? Who gives a shit about that card. I fucking even have one.

yes this thread is all about goyf

i refuse to be disrespectful enough to take this post seriously. it's just annoying when you pretend to be receptive to new ideas, then caricature others' suggestions. magic players do this all the time and i am sure it has much to do with nerds fetishizing their own individualism to the point where they think themselves incomprehensible to others. i guess the problem is you actually believe you're curious?

really, all you need to do is take a deep breath and you'll be less ridiculous. it is much less work than typing paragraphs upon paragraphs of drivel, and more rewarding too.

the thing is, you are very close to having a bunch of good ideas

 

[Diakonov]

I don't know if this will work for ahadabans' situation, but here is my experience. I have an aesthetic dislike of proxies. I completely understand why people have no problem with them and I have happily enjoyed playing many cubes that are 100% proxies. I decided that I wasn't going to use them in mine, and people have still had a lot of fun in the meantime with those constraints.

Over time I obtained all the cards I wanted to have in my cube regardless of cost. Selling the Tarmogoyf was the first time I've ever "dropped" a card due to cost (specifically, gaining $200). Tarmogoyf's niche is highly replaceable, and it is not on the Reserved List. It is $200. I should also mention that it is $200 and not on the Reserved List.

Of all the cards in the cube, hardly anyone cares whether or not you include Tarmogoyf.

 

[CML]

in my case a gift of high-quality dual-land proxies instantly eliminated whatever queasiness i felt about this, and i saw then my aversion was absurd

the point of this forum afaik is "just try it" which is all i'm saying. play cards ffs

 

[Onderzeeboot]

in my case a gift of high-quality dual-land proxies instantly eliminated whatever queasiness i felt about this, and i saw then my aversion was absurd

the point of this forum afaik is "just try it" which is all i'm saying. play cards ffs

Well, maybe I will, if I can get that thing I linked to to work and actually produce some high quality proxies that don't tilt me whenever I see them. So far pulling of the foil layer of a card has been addictive, so much possibilities!

I'm thinking of adding custom fast lands with basic types instead of duals though, to slightly advantage the aggro decks.

 

[GenericZero]

This VS. almost any black 4 drop creature you can think of. Personally, I love the card. I'm surprised more people don't play it.