General [Grid League] Penny Cube Grid League

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My temur + o-ring -deck.

I got my ass handed to me by Aston, well played !

This time my manabase was a lot better than with my two other decks, but i got hosed with bad hands / draws in so many games, giving aston many turns where i just pass and do nothing.
Given the fact his deck was a little better than mine the result wasn't surprising really.

Troll Ascetic is just stone cold nuts and it seems out of place in this cube... a bit too hard to interact with that card if your opponent knows what he is doing like Aston did, dodging my Savage Twister and Briarhorn by keeping two mana up..
As i said last time i took it out from my cube because it doesn't generate fun games in my opinion, so maybe it affects my judgment, but i don't think anyone can argue the power level of that card even if it might be fine in this cube.

I will post the drafting video tomorrow. Didn't record the matches because i have a flu and it can be painful to listen me talking when i barely can breathe and the sneezing, oh man.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ascetic seems fine. At its worst, in a situation where you can't out tempo it, sweep it, or edict it, all it asks you to do is produce an X/4 blocker. I don't think its unreasonable to expect people to beat it.

Even in the briarhorn game, while it warped the early-midgame around its presence (which should be fine), you stabilized against it, but lost due to a combination of mana flood/saproling burst replays. More powerful formats are running things like thrun, the last troll, where ascetic doesn't even register on that power meter. Its very much a strong, low power card, and doesn't really push the power continuum anymore than say goblin sharpshooter, goblin bombardment, persecute, lumberknot, jor kadeen, or firemane angel do.

But if enough people think its 3cc "win the game" I would be open to those arguments.

That manabase was going to make things tough. 18 lands with 2 bouncelands really guarantees flood, and the four color nature of the deck meant you were going to have to finally deal with the color screw you dodged last week, with the resulting higher mulligan rate. There also isn't a lot of synergy going on here, and it looks suspiciously like someone was trying to good stuff my format. :p

This puts us in a really interesting spot though as far as the competition is concerned, with the leaders tied, and kirblinx and I can completely upset the whole thing :cool:

I did have a question about one play though, and that was in match 3 (I think game 1), where aston has lethal on board, melty twisters, and aston bounces the maul splicer rather than memory lapsing the twister. Why not just lapse the twister?
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Have I used it in a draft before kirblinx? Was it just this one game on modo?
That would be a little sad, as there is nothing I am really excited about running. I would probably just jam in something like giant trap door spider

I know that I have used it in one of our drafts and it worked fine. It was only that one game that it was weird, although Aston never got to use it again so I don't know if the bug is still active.

It was nice that you were around to help setup their draft. It was 1am for me when they wanted to draft and I was completely in dreamland by that point. I have to say, I was not expecting a draft to be done overnight. Feels weird always being the last one to play their game each round.

Troll Ascetic I've never found to be too much of a problem. I've seen it die by Starstorm or it just gets outraced. It is very hard to kill, but it doesn't affect the game in a negative way. It just makes you change your gameplan to either get a creature with 4 toughness out or try and outrace. Makes for a nice mini-game so to speak. Troll Ascetic + Aura is also something that just happens, like Moltensteel Dragon + Assault Strobe, there isn't much you can do about it. But magic wouldn't be magic without these game-swinging plays.
 
I did have a question about one play though, and that was in match 3 (I think game 1), where aston has lethal on board, melty twisters, and aston bounces the maul splicer rather than memory lapsing the twister. Why not just lapse the twister?


Unless I miscounted, I don't think I had lethal - I had 8 power (as I forgot to play the troll ascetic in my hand) and Melty was on 10. I was thinking it would be safer to let the Savage Twister resolve and Memory Lapse any follow-up play, because if I Lapse the Twister then my alpha strike leaves me dead to something like Incinerate - it's unlikely he has it, but not completely out of the question, and then I have to deal with figuring out attacks and blocks and I couldn't really be bothered.

Plus I just really like casting Maul Splicer.
 
I was curious about the x/4 blocker and troll ascetic comment and used the filter on cubetutor to take a look. It may be buggy and doesn't account for token generators etc but it isn't a lot

white 2
Blue 2
Black 2
Red 3
Green 7
Gold 6
Artifact 3
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
What he actually ended up doing in that spot was flashing in briarhorn to block the ascetic (buffing itself). Than on the subsequent turn played spike feeder, moving a counter over to briarhorn. At that point he had stabilized at a fine life total, and at that point the game didn't revolve around ascetic at all.

Keep in mind that those totals should be understood as percentages, and even with those raw numbers coming out to 25, that translates to about 7% of the cube. That analysis also excludes all of the grow effects that can permanently blank it, the token or fodder producing effects that can chump it, the edict effects that can kill it, and the sweepers that can kill it with a little work.

This also assumes that the gamestate is one where the troll is a question demanding an answer. A 3 mana, non evasive 3/2, can be a blank on quite a few boards.
 
That manabase was going to make things tough. 18 lands with 2 bouncelands really guarantees flood, and the four color nature of the deck meant you were going to have to finally deal with the color screw you dodged last week, with the resulting higher mulligan rate. There also isn't a lot of synergy going on here, and it looks suspiciously like someone was trying to good stuff my format. :p

My manabase wasn't that awful, but i hear you, there are times when you get the wrong mana, but i'm not talking about drawing the wrong lands, check my hands:

Match 1, game 1 where i prolly should have mulliganed on the draw, but i thought i had time to scry myself some business, but as usual you only see lands with this hand :D
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Match 1, game 2: hand 1 and hand 2
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Match 1 game 3: hand 1 and hand 2 - 18 lands in this deck...

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Match 2 game 1: hand 1 and hand 2

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iWc2ek
iWc2ek

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Match 2 game 2:
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Match 3 game 1:
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Match 3 game 1:hand 1 and hand 2
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Match 3 game 2
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Dunno, this time it didn't felt like i had just a little bad variance. 8/12 hands were just plain awful.
My last hand probably was the best and i lost with that one also.
 
And some actual content after my depressing moaning:

Drafting phase:



We fought over blue the whole time and i think Aston got the longer straw with Body Double that did a lot of work, coupled with some nice counterspells and draw spells.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Now that I don't have a raging headache I can be a little clearer ( and constructive) about what I mean by mana bases.

Manabase construction in this format can get really deep. Those bouncelands are effectively like land cantrips, so an 18 land deck with 2 bouncelands is effectively a 20 land deck, or 50% mana. You're pretty much guaranted to flood with that arrangment, and if you look at a lot of those openers (awesome of you to post btw) and ask yourself "what does this hand do" a lot of them look really susciptable to flood. Most of the deck can run off of low mana amounts, and just wants to cap at say 6 mana to sequence out pairs of threes, and some 5 drops.

You can really exploit bouncelands to cheat on mana and maximize top deck potential. We had really greedy ramp decks running 14-15 mana here for a while, because bouncelands are just so good. Granted that strategy can run into some practical problems, and 16 lands is probably much safer. 18 lands, however, in any deck, is really high.

The one mana hands I will agree are bad variance, but all of the other hands look pretty normal I think for that configuration.
 
Playing with Bouncelands plus stuff like Compulsive Research feels like playing a 25 spell 20 land deck with still only 40 cards.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, one of the reasons why cards like stormbind and compulsive are actually in the cube, is to give non-aggro decks an incentive to run more than 15 lands.

And than managing mana flow with the scry lands, and the way they work with the bouncelands to min/max your top decks, is a whole other discussion.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
So I just got a little wrecked by Grillo's 'Pile of Blue and Green Cards' with what I thought was a spectacular looking Jeskai Artifact deck:
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The matches were very long and windy (unless I won, then it only took 5 turns). I tried to go more long game than I should have. I should have probably put in the Reckless Waif, Stingscourger and Assault Strobe, as I really needed to punch through at the start as Grillo had way too much card draw and dominated me in any long game.

Matches went 1-2, 1-2, 2-1. So they were all really close matches and even some of the games were exceptionally close. I'll post more about them later when the videos have uploaded. I got the maximum points I could get from losing, so that is a plus. Should shake up the scoreboard a bit.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I am...(finally) victorious!

Went 2-1, but kirblinx got the full 4 points for losing. This means that if cloudshift hosting doesn't wreak things, we can have a complete upset next week in the rankings. Games were insane, except for the first game of every match where I was utterly destroyed. Deck would just not run well for some reason on game 1s.

This was the beast.

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I've never gone into these UG tempo decks before, though I know they're good, but its super uncomfortable drafting them. You're always in that mindset of drafting removal heavily in limited formats, and these decks really askew that approach for a little bounce, evasion, disruption, and massive productions of burst damage. You're ideally building towards one turn where you deal 10+ points of evasive damage, after chipping at them throughout the game. Lots of instants and tricks that they have to play around.

The draft was...well, by the end of it I knew I basically could just never beat a turn 2 porcelain legionnaire. The last couple rounds, I've largely attributed my losses to not having enough early creatures to starve off damage until my late game takes over, and I felt I failed in that regards again this week. The only high point in the draft was seeing mistfire, which I know is the best card in these sorts of UG decks.

His deck was really cool, and basically played like the boros kitty decks in pauper, where ETB artifacts, and replaying or blinking the ETB artifacts, becomes the decks source of card draw. His deck had some brutal bombs, card draw, good removal, and reasonable early pressure. Even worse, he managed to get a master splicer and wing splicer, with a bunch of other golems, and had a tribal theme going. Its a really intimidating pool to look at for me. Thankfully, this ended up being a reasonable matchup. He would hemorrhage tempo in the early game playing his artifacts; this meant he wasn't adding to the board, which was the thing I was most scared of.

Though there would be certain draw sequences that would be brutally hard for me to beat, but which I managed to avoid. Flickerwisp on a bounceland, turn 4 moltensteel dragon, and turn 2 legionnaire were going to be rough. I was also trying to avoid prison term (which I considered hate drafting out of an insane pack where he could get there, assault strobe, or rolling thunder), as it basically wreaked all of my hexproof/buff/aura shannigans. His pool just looks like a bunch of cards that I basically can never beat.

However, the MVPs



Mistfire was the best card in the deck, bar none, and most of the games I won involved some combination of mistfire and become immense. Ambush viper is just adorable when you start pairing it up with auras, and even without that it feeds delve, acts as removal, blanks attacks, or sneaks in damage. What a little role player.

The games were so much fun though.

After m1g1 I thought I had really screwed up, and was going to board in a couple red 2 drops (which would have been a mistake) but had accidentally removed them from my pool. I was crushed by a turn 2 spined thopter into flickerwisp disruption on my bouncelands. Ugh.

m1g2 he had the sort of slower start I needed, where he went evolving wilds-chronomaton->ichor wellspring, while I was able to setup a bounceland without it being flickerwisped and ran out mistfire adept, destroyer of worlds. After it resolved, he flickerwisped on his turn. I had a gruul turf in play, and a hand of gas, and was pretty worried he was going to hit the bounce, but instead he flickered his wellspring.

I untapped, and the madness begins. I have the following hand:





which, of course, results in:

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11/9 flying trampler...all the things I want in magic.

This drops him down to 9, but his deck is gas, and he drops a wingsplicer.

Than the turn sequences just got really tight. On my turn I draw silumgar sorcerer, and drop a temple of epithany, seeing an acidic slime, which I ponder about for a bit, but decide to top. Granted I have to worry about a 3/3 flying chronomaton and 3/3 golem token, but at the worst I can slime the token.

I crack in with an 8/6 mistfire, and he double blocks. He can tap and pump the chronomaton to still kill the mistfire even if I fire off stroke. I could fire off stroke looking for an instant, but decide its better to keep stroke and sorcerer up. This was actually a little tricky, because I have to assign damage, so I make an even 3 split, with 2 going through to him. I figure if he decides to save his chronomaton thats fine: at this point I just want to keep the pressure up. I know I'm going to get a 3/3 token and rancor out of this, no matter what. He lets both creatures die, and on his turn he goes to azorius arrester the elephant token. I crack terrarion, run out sorcerer (drawing the acidic slime, which now looks kind of bad), and he tarfires the sorcerer. I opt to pass on the exploit trigger, rather than killing my own elephant token. He cracks in, and drops me to 13. he is at 7. Than on his second main, glory be to jesus, he runs out a bounceland.

Draw for the turn is scryb ranger. Everything is coming up millhouse. Acidic slim on his boros garrison, than holding up mana for scryb ranger, 2/2 deathtouch in play, 3/3 elephant token, and rancor in hand. Slowly building up to the kill.

On his turn he hits me down to 10 and he runs out a kor skyfisher, which is not the card I want to see on his side.

I rancor up the ranger, and hes at 7, so I swing with the team for leathal. Our teams trade off, he goes to four, and has a flickerwisp and wingsplicer. I have an untapped elephant token, and rancor in hand. He EOT brimstone volleys the elephant token, which is a really close play (I was at 10 and he had a 3/1 flyer) but I think he had to do it at some point. If I can rancor up the elephant guide, I can swing for lethal through a one toughness blocker.

He taps out on his turn for moltensteel dragon. My hand is deep analysis, stroke of genius, rancor, and golgari rot farm. I'm going to need a miracle stat, and fire off the stroke.




Perfection? Close to it? I'm kind of stunned and sit there running lines through my head. Draw for the turn is saproling burst. I pass turn with all of that mana open, and discard the rot farm. 11 cards in the yard.

His turn, he cracks with molten steel and flickerwisp. Wingsplicer stays home. I'm at 6, but he can't really pump the dragon. Flash in horizon chimera, cross fingers, hope no instant speed removal, delve become immense onto the chimera making it a 9/8 and eating the dragon, dropping to 3 from the wisp. I have the win all setup and than...on his second main he ichor wellsprings into...voyager staff!

I'm thinking of all the ways this screws up my plans, but he cracks the staff immediately, targeting flickerwisp, and than flickered the wingsplicer, which I'm pretty sure was a misclick. I think I would have still been fine, since I had deep analysis and saproling burst, as well as the somonophore. At this point though he is just dead, but I need to step away from the monitor for a moment to calm my nerves.

And thats a good thing, because M1g3 was another nail biter

He had another slow start, which I'm relieved about, especially since I'm having some trouble with my mana. I have memory lapse in hand, but am stuck on three lands, so I figure that I will tap out to trinket mage for a sylvok lifestaff, because why not pressure him?

Immediately punished.

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Why...why me!?

So, I'm stuck on three lands, conceivably dead in a couple turns, with a stupid trinket mage in play. To add salt to the wound, draw for the turn is mnemonic wall. My only hope is to try to bait him to blocking so I can vines the trinket mage, which he of course declines to do. I run out the lifestaff (hope you were worth it). He cracks in at me for 6, and I drop to 14.

Draw is compulsive research, and I just jam it, hitting big: temple of mystery, rancor, and snap. Memory lapse and vines go the yard, as I figure I won't have time for them. Play out temple, seeing ranger, which goes to the bottom. Hes at 15 from his own dragon, and I drop him to 13. I have a plan.

On his turn I take another 6, he goes to 8, and he sunlance's my trinket mage. He actually couldn't kill me here without killing himself, due to those trinket mage attacks, but I'm very dead next turn, according to the board.

So, now the standoff. He goes for the attack, and I let him bleed himself down to 9 life, before I snap the dragon back to his hand. He has four mana untapped, so if he wants to recast it, he goes to 5. He opts not to recast it, and runs out wing splicer. I stroke for 2 at EOT, and everything looks great. I run out the acidic slime to kill the golem token, followed by simic growth chamber, and will have enough mana to mnemonic wall->snap, next turn if I need to address the dragon again.

He skyfishers, replaying the wing splicer. Leaving two mana up for the voyager staff he played turn 1.

Now, my turn is adorable.

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So, I want to deploy my saproling burst, elephant guide, become immense, and rancor, but his voyager staff will royally screw everything up. However, he is unlikely to want to flicker the acidic slime, because he knows this will cost him his golem. As long as this board state continues, I will be unable to really deploy my threats, and end up losing. Because he left red up, i'm also a little worried about tarfire on the slime, in response to anything I do.

So, I first put the lifestaff on the slime. Than I play out the forest, and cast rancor on the slime, before the attack. I don't want to attack first, because he might opt to trade with the slime, rather than using the staff, and my whole goal is to induce the staff usage. Now he is in a spot. If he has tarfire, and hits the slime, I go up three life, which is really nice in this spot. If he doesn't flicker I get to have a 5/2 trample death touch creature that gains me three life on its death. I'll get to swing, and if he blocks, he losses board position, takes damage, and I go up three. If he does flicker in response, than I get to blow up his token.

He flickers the slime in response, as the bait of rancor is too good. I play out a saproling burst, slime comes back, and blows up his golem.

On his turn, he drops me to 6, he's at 9, than plays out the dragon and porcelain legionnaire, putting me in another precarious spot, but I've carefully developed the board for this kill. Make 3 tokens with saproling burst EOT. mnemonic wall->snap, tap simic growth chamber and temple of mystery to snap targeting the dragon. Elephant guide on the acidic slime, leaving temple of mystery up, 7 cards in the yard. Swing, and become immense one of the unblocked tokens.

And I actually win!

m2g1 I get crushed, m2g2 I might do a write up later (it was really cool). M2g3 I feel was decided by a vines protecting an early mistfire adept. Adept just took over after that.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
So now that my videos have uploaded and Grillo's done his writeup, I may as well say what happened M2G2, since Grillo reckons it was pretty cool (I don't think losing is cool, but whatever, I'll go with it).

Draft:
Match 1:
Match 2:
Match 3:
Match 2 Game 1:
Turn 4 Moltensteel Dragon after a Porcelain Legionnaire is not what Grillo wants to see, and dies playing only a Trinket Mage.

Match 2 Game 2:
I open with a hand, with by my own words call 'slow and clunky' and durdle with bouncelands and Wellsprings until I drop a Master Splicer. The Golem token gets snapped right away and then the shenanigans begin when a Lumberknot comes down. So I get to drop my Wing Splicer and have a 4/4 flying golem to deal with his threats. Grillo just decides to attack with the Sylvok Lifestaff equipped Scryb Ranger, but I am not game enough to block and take the two. He then passes the turn with 6 mana open and I am a little concerned.

I want to keep my mana up for Brimstone Volley so I just play a Prophetic Prism, swing with the golem and pass. Grillo has a Stroke for 3 then I start to regret many things in life:
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So he swings in, and I go in the tank for a while and decide to Triclopean Sight my Golem. I then regret my decision, think about all the pump spells he could have and choose not to block. So I go to 9, he drops a Somnophore and passes.

I try and Prison Term the Scryb Ranger (to stop the untap) but it is met with a Vines of Vastwood (good thing I didn't block I guess?). So I beat in with the Golem, Grillo takes it and I drop the Ancestral Statue returning a Wellspring. Pass to Grillo and all he does is drop a Terarrion and passes, which I thought was strange. I drop the Wellspring, swing with the vigilance Golem, which gets chumped by Sryb and I pass. Then the wheels fall off the gravy train:
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Yup, Horizon Chimera into Ambush Viper. What I should have done there is kill the Chimera in response to the Viper because things go nuts. His draw, plus Terarrion, plus Deep Analysis gain him 4 life that turn and give him waaaayy too many cards. I kill it after all the life has been gained, Grillo suits up the Viper with the Lifestaff and hits me down to 7 and passes. I swing in with my Golems, he chumps with the Somnophore, going back down to 13. I then try and cast my Spined Thoper only to be Silumgar Sorcerer'd, exploiting the viper and gaining 3 life and putting the Lumberknot up to a 7/5. I pass turn.

Grillo then Lifestaff's up the Lumberknot and swings in. I crack my Foundry of the Consuls to get two thopers and go in the tank. So I need to block with my golem plus two others to survive Become Immense, which I do, so all my tokens die, Grillo gains 3 and slams Saproling Burst and passes.
I rip a Voyager Staff and looks like I can live another turn. I have to decide if I flicker the Splicer to get me a golem or save it to 'counter' a Become Immense. I go for the latter watching my entire board die. Draw nothing next turn and die to the next swing, with Grillo all the way back up to 22 :(

Match 2 Game 3:
This one came down to a couple of bad decisions on my part. The first one was this:
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Completely forgetting he had the Viper I was too enamored by how cool Chronomaton + Vigilance would be, with two cards to help it get through in hand, then it just gets taken out :(

Then after that a overpowered Mistfire Adept (it lived the Sunlance with a Vines of Vastwood) comes down and beats me down after a Terarrion and Saproling Burst. It all comes down to this point:
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So I am going to flash in the Midnight Haunting no matter what. He is attacking for 9, so I lose to Become Immense, if I don't block one of them. I then have to hope he doesn't have a spell to make his creatures fly because I can swing with all the flyers for lethal with an active Jor Kadeen. I was also worried about Snap and Memory Lapse, as they would also kill me. I stupidly block with one of the flying tokens, a Become Immense appears and I go to 1. I drop Jor, attack with the team and the Arrestor gets chumped and I die on the swing back. I wonder if I had blocked with the Arrestor I would have won. Ah, well, can't play every game correctly. I was surprised I got that close with that early blowout.

While I am on a roll, may as well talk about match 3!

Match 3 Game 1:
Turn 2 Porcelain Legionnaire into turn 4 Moltensteel Dragon gets 'em every time.

Match 3 Game 2:
Grillo gets a turn 4 Mistfire Adept. Need I say more?
z4MTU1Z.png

I Flickerwisp'ed it the next turn, but the damage had already been done. As Rancor came back down followed by a Become Immense for way too much trample for me to take.

Match 3 Game 3:
I mulligan from this:
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to this:
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to this:
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See a Master Splicer on top, and resign myself to a loss.

Drop Prism and Wellspring on turns 2 and 3 and things aren't as bad as I made them out to be:
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I drop Master Splicer into Wing Splicer into Flickerwisp and end up with a massive airforce. Some of it gets taken down by a Horizon Chimera and a Snap, but a Midnight Haunting and Chronomaton (Golem!) come and mop up the job.

Deck was nuts, just not nuts enough to beat the utter brokenness that Mistfire Adept is :p
At least I am not last. With all my good losses I am still in pretty prime position.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
M2g2

I think I misplayed with that snap on the golem token. What I should have done was just run out lumberknot and hold back ranger, drop the temple, and next turn use snap to ramp up a giant stroke of genius on your EOT. I just made the play without thinking.

I was really surprised that you didn't block with the the triclopean sighted golem token on my 3/1 lumberknot. I had attacked in, because I figured you would have to block with one of the splicer lords, which I very badly wanted off the table, and than I could vines of vastwood in response. Granted that attack really telegraphs a combat trick, but the only instant that is a blowout here is become immense. Triclopean sight makes the token just big enough to trade with vines of vastwood, which I assumed had been your plan when you cast it, and getting the lumberknot off the table was essential for the game to develop in the direction you needed it to go.

I also want to say for a moment how adorable that EOT ambush viper was. Here is the board:

Screenshot_61.png



The classic way to beat lumberknot is to just prevent creatures from dying, let it stay a 1/1, and than attack along a different axis, such as the air (which is why I suspect you were hesitant to just outright brimstone the chimera). So this board state is stalemated right now, as you can't afford to let me chump with the somnophore. On the reverse end of things, you can't really afford to trade with any of your creatures. The two flyers are important, as are the two splicer lords, and it would result in me getting 3 life as well as a 6/4 lumberknot.

So I get to just sit there getting a free 3 damage a turn on a normally stalemated board, until such point as you decide you can't afford to take it anymore, than my lumberknot gets +2 +2, you lose a creature, and I gain 3 life. Plus, it puts the pressure on you to act, in a situation where I have two counters in hand.

What I should have done was just memory lapsed the spined thoper, but I was greedy about growing the lumberknot, which was basically my long term plan. It was a mistake for me not to run out the saproling burst, and attack first with the lumberknot--I just just forgotten that you could make those thopter tokens, as well as the fact that the saproling tokens actually trigger death triggers when burst itself goes away.

m3g3 my hand on that attack step was




That compulsive research I cast hit all lands. I had forgotten you played midnight haunting (but probably wouldn't have played around it) though the three open mana looks very suspicious in retrospect. I was originally expecting you to block with the arrester because it was never going to get in past the saproling burst, and was surprised when you blocked with the spirit instead. Seeing as I had dug 4 cards that turn, I can see that you were worried about me having an instant, but I'm not sure you could really play around that.

I had screwed up my mana though that turn. When I cast the compulsive I wasn't thinking and tapped a bunch of green sources, not thinking I would want to cast elephant guide and become immense in the same turn. Its really embarrassing considering I had used a terrarion that turn. I should have gone terrarion->compulsive research->elephant guide on a saproling token. That way I have three mistfire triggers. In that spot you have to flash in midnight haunting, and block the 6/6 flying token, or just outright lose to become immense. It lets me play around the maximum number of game losing sequencings, rather than hoping that you would become so focused on playing around my instants that you would take an overly conservative line.

The thing that makes these flash decks do good, whether UB or UG, is how hard they are to play against. You can become so focused on playing around things, that you actually miss opportunities and begin hemorrhaging tempo against them. The decks demand you know when its not worth playing around things, which can be a pretty hard skill to develop.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
So onto round 4 of the league and I haven't been knocked out just yet.

It was a weird draft. Melty took so many random cards I had no idea what he was doing. I think I got lucky and scored some sick first picks though. I don't know if there is much you can do about that.

First picked two sweet white cards then ended up in Blue Black, as that happens all the time.
BLOshlP.png


I know I am nuts leaving the card draw in the board. I just don't know what to cut. I also kept swapping Peregrine Drake for Warren Weirding as Troll Ascetic was giving me a hard time.

I also got to use the fancy new overlay that Safra made. Still have to buff out the kinks with it, but overall I think it makes the presentation look 100% better.
Drafting:
Match 1:
Match 2:
Match 3:
Matches ended up going 1-2, 2-0, 2-0. So after a shaky start I hammered Meltyman to take the 6 points (he gets 2). His deck was very creature light, so whenever I saw a creature I killed it on sight. There were about 3 times that this little combo decided to come about, and just completely wrecked Melty.


Sure it is just like two removal spells, but when you aren't expecting it and have few other threats to put on board, it was pretty damaging.

There was one sweet play I made, which I might share later (after sleep), but they were few and far between. Just good draws on my part, really.

Meltyman and I also had a decent discussion about the grid draft process being way too focused on 'goodstuff'. As you can't really go in on the synergy plans due to the possibility payoff cards being hated out when they come by. I think Melty was just a bit disappointed that he picked up two decent auras (Rancor and Unflinching Courage) and couldn't get them to stick, due to the amount of ways I had to deal with them.

It was an interesting discussion and he is probably best to talk more about it.

In the end, this makes myself and Meltyman 2-2. If Grillo beats Aston, it is going to be a real tight race to the finish.
 
Lost to Kirblinx 1-2 (2-1, 0-2 and 0-2).

My deck which was all over the place:
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Looking back at the draft the second time i still don't see what i should have done radically different. (i will upload the draft soon)
I sideboarded Ghastly Demise out for Mystical Teachings and swapped terrarion for chromatic star which i sort of forgot, because i at first thought of having Chittering Rats in the mix.

12 creatures were too low amount, but having Reclamation Sage main deck when my opponent has 0 targets for it seems quite loose, Savra is 4 mana 2/2 with a marginal ability, Chittering Rats double black in 4-colors not the best.

I think my match videos had so much dead air that i feel i don't upload them this time, unless someone wants to see them :D
Match 3 i didn't even record because i noticed myself not talking that much.

But a little summary about our games:

Match 1 game 1. (kirblinx won the coin flip)
I pass the turn for 3 turns while troll ascetic is waiting for a second green source.
Kirblinx gets a 2/1 flier on my eot turn 3 to make pressure. Kirby passes the turn with 4 mana open on turn 4.
On my turn 4 i play Quirion Dryad which resolves. On Kirby's turn 5 i memory leak his turn 5 play which starts to pump my dryad.
I find a second green source which unfortunately comes into play tapped, so i chose to play master splicer and now i'm having a 3/3 dryad ready for beats.

The game flows into a situation where i make Kirby trade my 4/4 golem and Quirion Dryad against his 4/4 whelk and ink-eyes while Troll Ascetic is beating with rancor to victory, Kirby had a sacrifice effect in his hand, but luckily the Master Splicer can take the hit.
1-0

Match 1 game 2.
My hand has only Troll Ascetic, Rancor , two lands, two artifact fixers and a removal.
I get to resolve the Troll Ascetic, but sadly the Entomber Exarch take away the Rancor.

Turn 6 Kirby has 3 creatures, Swarm of Bloodflies, Phyrexian Rager and Entomber Exarch in play while i only have the Troll.
Kirby aggressively attacks with everything and let me kill a Phyrexian Rager or the Entomber Exarch while having regenerate mana open.
I choose to kill Phyrexian Rager, because i don't mind that much if it's reanimated, but Exarch would suck.
Kirby Snaps the Exarch after the damage and play the Exarch again taking away my Crib Swap that could kill the Swarm.
This leads me to dying to Swarm of Bloodflies hitting me for 2 damage, 5 damage and 8 damage for lethal.
Ghastly Demise started to look pretty bad in my hand since i saw mainly black creatures, after this it's sided out every time.

1-1

Match 1 game 3
Mulligan to six, but this time i'm going out of the gates with a t2 Jeskai Elder into Rancor or Civic Wayfinder. Kirby goes t1 Chronomaton, t2 and t3 nothing.
I go with the Wayfinder since i know of the snap, luckily no countermagic to it.
T4 i Faith's Fetters the Chronomaton and bash in for 4 and loot.
Kirby finds removals for some of my creatures but not for everyone and Rancor gets to chip in damage so that Kirby goes to 2 life.
We have a little faceoff where i'm looking for cards that pump my Quirion Dryad so big that Kirby can't kill it.
My Dryad is finally a 4/4 and i have an Into the Roil in my hand, Kirby has Fleshbag Marauder and a 1/1 token on his side. I attack with my Dryad and Kirby righfully chumps only with the token.
I know his next draw is a 5/5, so i have to find something for it sooner or later, unless Kirby attacks with the Fleshback Marauder after he has played the 5/5, luckily he went for the aggression and i can just bounce the 5/5 and hit for the kill.
2-1

Match 2 game 1 (kirby wins the coin flip)
Mulligan to 6, kept a pretty clunky hand with 2 lands, Kor Skyfisher, Master Splicer and 2 6-drops.
I played pretty loosely by playing Kor Skyfisher t2 and bounce a land, rather than not scrying a terrarion to the bottom with my scry land and playing Skyfisher turn 3 bouncing the terrarion.
It might have cost me this game, but i was pretty far behind on this match anyhoot. I simply get tempoed out, Kirby plays more creatures into play and kill my creatures.

0-1

Match 2 game 2
Mulligan to 6, Ok hand where my only creature in hand is Troll Ascetic and i only have 1 green source in hand.
I happen to find the second green source and play the Troll turn 3. Turn 4 i found out that my Ancestral Statue is actually a horrible card and get timewalked by playing it and just bouncing it back to my hand, ggs. Yes it doesn't bounce a land...
This probably has something to do with the sequencing that makes me lose the game, but certainly being stuck to 4 lands doesn't help the situation.
Unflinching Courage might have gotten me out of the sticky situation, but i was so behind that i needed to have 5 mana to courage and bounce something. If only i didn't timewalk myself and rather Couraged my troll :)
I get overwhelmed by creatures while i only have the troll and a selfbouncing 3/4 in my hand laughing at me.
0-2 (1-1)

Match 3 game 1 and game 2.
If i'm not mistaken both of these games went the same way where i draw only a couple of creatures only to get them removed and i get beaten by a couple of creatures.
I wouldn't mind some mass removal in this format !! Oh, yeah it was non-red draft this time ;)

1-2 (1-2)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I went through to pack 7, at which point things became too divergent to be helpful, but the deck you should have ended up in was a U/W/b deck.

I think he was correct to go flickerwisp->blink->sorcerer off the bat, and the teachings->impulse line was fine: pretty close actually in power level to his line. I would be looking to be U/x at this point, and be cutting him off of blue.

Pack 2, I think your line was fine. Elder gives some nice early interaction for a control deck, and master splicer is a great blocker for those decks. I would be leaning towards U/W splicers or a more controllish U/W deck.

Pack 3 I think is where you made your first major mistake. Arbiter and rewind are exactly what your deck wants, and you really over evaluated faith's fetters. Gideon is very medium to poor in your deck, as your picks have been pushing you more towards a controlling U/W deck. Savra does nothing for your pool.

Rewind is an absolutely insane card with bouncelands, its a hard counter that ramps you, and you can start looking for more instants or flash spells to further give your deck more identity. The mystical teachings you already drafted is amazing with it. This pick would have firmly put you in U/W, probably looking to splash black to flashback teachings. Arbiter is a very powerful card, that just makes there deck run so much worse, and your deck so much better. Its a subtle, but powerful effect, which these types of U/W decks are very well positioned to take advantage of over a long game.

Pack 4, was a really bad pick, which at this point was more a reflection of how disjointed your draft had been going. Had we been going down the U/W trail, the clear pick here is frantic search, which is exactly what that deck wants. The only question is if you speculate on the off color splash, taking echoing decay, or if you hate draft wurm. Seeing how powerful wurm is, and how much kirblinx loves it, I would say you hate draft the wurm. At this point, you would be on the lookout for bouncelands, counters, removal, and more splicers, with the U/W plan.

For pack 5, If you aren't on the U/W plan, you want galvanic juggernaut, because at this point your draft is pretty unfocused, and galv juggernaut is a at least a powerful card capable of going in any deck.

If you are the U/W plan, the appealing cards are cove, shredder, juggernaut, and revival. Control decks want some way to recur removal, and as much as it would be nice to pick up fixing at this point, going shredder->wayfinder->juggernaut gives you a pseudo vigilance creature to hold the ground, and a sources of recursion. Now we are focused on finding removal and bouncelands, or at last some fixing, with the U/W plan. Probably want that black splash in case a murderous cut or something shows up.

Pack 6 I thought was a reasonable pick for the UW deck, though we're probably just looking at running the lapse. I think thats more important than mindshrieker.

Pack 7, Snap is the strongest card in that pick by a mile, and kirblinx, of course, takes it. On our U/W plan, you either go death rattle->growth->kor skyfisher or death rattle->sunscape familiar. We want the death rattle though, as removal is on our want list. Its just a question of which creature we want. If we have enough blue spells, sunscape looks very good, but skyfisher can blocker flyers, and assert pressure. Probably go with skyfisher, just on the hope of bouncing back the master splicer. You would have to compare your packs and his picks up to his point to decide, however.

Than in pack 8, you would get rewarded with a dimir aqueduct, and that pretty much puts you on a U/W/b plan, which looks very solid, and can fill out the rest in the next eight packs, which is a nice spot to be in.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
As much as I want to do well in this thing, theres some real culture shock transitioning from a high power format to a low power format, even a low power + like this one. I had a post here in my blog that I think explains why the transition can be so jarring. Relevant portions posted and edited for brevity:


I've been reading e. hustle's not particularly well written, but at times insightful articles about deckbuilding in pauper, and came across this exert which I found interesting

Another mistake deckbuilders commonly make is constructing a deck that fails to execute a game plan. A deckbuilder may have a solid concept for a deck, but, for one reason or another, their deck fails to deliver. In general, the power level of individual common cards is much lower than that of higher rarity cards. There are very few cards in Pauper that can individually compete with the power level of Mythic Rare creatures, planeswalkers and equipment, and their ability to single handedly win you the game. Therefore in Pauper you’re generally going have to put some effort into winning, often involving sculpting a game plan over multiple turns.
I think he did hit about a key difference between low power and high power formats, that formats compromised mostly of commons and uncommons trend towards one end of a spectrum, and power max formats trend towards another end, as far as strategic pacing is concerned.

I have a love hate relationship with those low power formats; because the games are very much about sculpting a focused strategy, which means the games can feel quite deep, however, the effects of an unfavorable turn is just brutal. When you are losing, you tend to just keep on losing, as individual cards do little to help you catch pace in these little wars of incremental strategy, and there is not much in the way of tempo recouping devices to help you out of the hole. In addition, there is a huge emphasis on meta knowledge, which is awesome for the depth it adds, but results in a heightened learning curve that can be off-putting. Finally, because there aren't power spikes, the games can lack the excitement players want, since the pleasure of a low power format comes from subtle micro interactions managed over time, and there isn't much flash.

Rare/mythic formats tend to have a lot of high power tempo recouping plays, but at times this can overtake the practice of drafting focused decks and sculpting a focused gameplan over multiple turns...

...So I think there is something of a needle to thread here, which I ended up inadvertently doing, since I sprinkled some miscellaneous rares throughout the cube at the onset, no mythics, and tried to keep the rares more modest in power level. The way game pacing works out, you have predominately weaker cards that can't win the game on their own, and require a player to draft a focused deck and develop a strategy over multiple turns...This is also probably why drafters new to the format find it quite challenging, as it emphasizes meta knowledge (which they don't have yet), and demands that they approach the game heavily from an angle they may be unaccustomed to doing so from.

I do have something of a safety value though, to prevent the games from being determined too much by minutia, with reasonably powered, fun rares...If you imagine the games being paced in a way where each player is trying to craft a certain game state over many turns, these rares have to serve a function of address what happens when a player falls behind in that strategic progression (which can happen for many different reasons) and offer just enough power for them to catch up that lost tempo. This prevents the sort of weird "zombie-games" you get in pauper, where a single misstep on turn 2 means that a player effectively can't win, but the game goes on for seven more turns. However, the rares can't be so powerful, that when cast when even or ahead they completely close out the game because they put a player so far ahead.

Because of the generally low power level of the cards, you need a critical mass of them to effect powerful plays. Because you need a critical strategic mass for a deck to be viable, executing powerful plays necessarily means devoting more raw deck space to it. Because you have to devote more raw deck space, your decks end up being focused on executing a strategy. The decks start to become very picky and actively weakened by running cards that seem strong or reasonable, but only distract from gathering together that critical strategic mass. This makes the draft harder, as card evaluations can change wildly depending on context, and it also heavily rewards format knowledge.

Rewind is a good example of this principle. It occupies a niche similar to that which mana drain would in a higher power format: its a hard counter that ramps you. However, while mana drain independently grants that payoff, rewind requires focused drafting (and gameplay) to realize it. You have to draft both a reasonable density of bouncelands, as well as a reasonable density of instant speed mana sinks (draining whelk, mystical teachings, stroke of genius). Once you realize that critical mass, you than have the option of carefully charting a course to realize that game state. This is not easy to do. Deciding when or if it even makes sense to play towards that game state can be a hard choice in and of itself.

In addition, there is a tremendous amount of metagame knowledge at work. Reclamation sage, ghastly demise, devour flesh, and faith's fetters are strong cards, but metagame picks, whose power level can fluctuate dramatically depending on the matchup or where the metagame is trending. This means that you really have to pay attention to the draft, as what cards you are seeing can cause the evaluation of your picks to change wildly. This makes the draft, deck building, game play, and sideboarding much harder than.
 

Aoret

Developer
Desperately need feedback from you guys on whether the new cloudshift site is working for you.
 
I went through to pack 7, at which point things became too divergent to be helpful, but the deck you should have ended up in was a U/W/b deck.

I think he was correct to go flickerwisp->blink->sorcerer off the bat, and the teachings->impulse line was fine: pretty close actually in power level to his line. I would be looking to be U/x at this point, and be cutting him off of blue.

Pack 2, I think your line was fine. Elder gives some nice early interaction for a control deck, and master splicer is a great blocker for those decks. I would be leaning towards U/W splicers or a more controllish U/W deck.

Pack 3 I think is where you made your first major mistake. Arbiter and rewind are exactly what your deck wants, and you really over evaluated faith's fetters. Gideon is very medium to poor in your deck, as your picks have been pushing you more towards a controlling U/W deck. Savra does nothing for your pool.

Rewind is an absolutely insane card with bouncelands, its a hard counter that ramps you, and you can start looking for more instants or flash spells to further give your deck more identity. The mystical teachings you already drafted is amazing with it. This pick would have firmly put you in U/W, probably looking to splash black to flashback teachings. Arbiter is a very powerful card, that just makes there deck run so much worse, and your deck so much better. Its a subtle, but powerful effect, which these types of U/W decks are very well positioned to take advantage of over a long game.

Pack 4, was a really bad pick, which at this point was more a reflection of how disjointed your draft had been going. Had we been going down the U/W trail, the clear pick here is frantic search, which is exactly what that deck wants. The only question is if you speculate on the off color splash, taking echoing decay, or if you hate draft wurm. Seeing how powerful wurm is, and how much kirblinx loves it, I would say you hate draft the wurm. At this point, you would be on the lookout for bouncelands, counters, removal, and more splicers, with the U/W plan.

For pack 5, If you aren't on the U/W plan, you want galvanic juggernaut, because at this point your draft is pretty unfocused, and galv juggernaut is a at least a powerful card capable of going in any deck.

If you are the U/W plan, the appealing cards are cove, shredder, juggernaut, and revival. Control decks want some way to recur removal, and as much as it would be nice to pick up fixing at this point, going shredder->wayfinder->juggernaut gives you a pseudo vigilance creature to hold the ground, and a sources of recursion. Now we are focused on finding removal and bouncelands, or at last some fixing, with the U/W plan. Probably want that black splash in case a murderous cut or something shows up.

Pack 6 I thought was a reasonable pick for the UW deck, though we're probably just looking at running the lapse. I think thats more important than mindshrieker.

Pack 7, Snap is the strongest card in that pick by a mile, and kirblinx, of course, takes it. On our U/W plan, you either go death rattle->growth->kor skyfisher or death rattle->sunscape familiar. We want the death rattle though, as removal is on our want list. Its just a question of which creature we want. If we have enough blue spells, sunscape looks very good, but skyfisher can blocker flyers, and assert pressure. Probably go with skyfisher, just on the hope of bouncing back the master splicer. You would have to compare your packs and his picks up to his point to decide, however.

Than in pack 8, you would get rewarded with a dimir aqueduct, and that pretty much puts you on a U/W/b plan, which looks very solid, and can fill out the rest in the next eight packs, which is a nice spot to be in.

I could have taken an Arbiter over Faith's Fetters, but i don't feel it was an awful pick. As i said in the video, it's close, but if i'm going for Bant, then Faith's Fetters seems better because the other colors has no removals.

Taking a land that could go for my colors over Frantic Search also to me doesn't seem like a bad decision, it was just a different decision... because i picked my lands highly my mana base could easily play 4 colors.
Frantic Search doesn't give you card advantage, just the opposite, since you are drawing 2 and discarding 3, so you discard a card to ramp yourself for 1-2 manas.
I see the value in that card sometimes, but a bounceland that could go into my colors can't be a mistake in this case i think.
If we were talking about Compulsive Research, well that would have been a different talk. (i would have slammed CR, for sure)

Calling Rewind absolutely insane to me is a little exaggarating, because you can't play it on your turn and you need to have a certain type of hand to make it worth the 4-mana, i don't see a universe where Counterspell isn't just miles better most of the time. Frantic Search and Snap makes a little more sense because you can easily set them up on your turn and ramp yourself into playing two other spells after them.

This all boils to the thought i'm having of Grid Drafting is that it feels to be almost on par with winston drafting, where you just take the juiciest picks and hope you get stuff for the colors to support them.
You can't think way ahead since you don't know if the stuff you are getting will even appear or if the stuff you are looking for will just be picked first by the opponent.
A lot more random than a normal draft that's for sure.
Just observation, i haven't played a 1vs1 draft format where this isn't the case yet, so it isn't a surprise for me per se, i still like 1vs1 draft formats, although not as much as a normal draft obviously.

I have thought about the "goodstuffing this format" and in grid drafting i don't see that many patterns where the picks won't go that way.
Just take the best cards or best cards that the opponent wants that you might get to play also.
In this cube the picking order might diffrentiate a little in terms of card power levels, where snap is more awsome than normally, but taking it still means goodstuffing, since most of the ETB stuff in this cube are just way better than most of the other creatures...
 

Aoret

Developer
I used firefox and it didn't work. I press submit and nothing happened.
Weird!! Did you have this problem with the old cloudshift site?

I just reproduced it myself with Firefox (it works fine in Chrome), so I should be able to get a fix out sometime soon.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
The problem with the good stuff argument though is that those decks haven't been doing very well. Decks running reasonable cards and a coherent strategy are going to out perform decks prioritizing good cards over a coherent strategy. This is pretty consistent with RL draft results as well. But like I said, I'm playing you in the last round, so feel free to disregard everything I say.

I would say that some of those picks were maybe ok, but none of them really took the deck towards a coherent strategy that the draft was feeding you, which was the problem.

The problem with the fetters pick was that fetters is already pretty easy for some colors to deal with: its target can be flickered, the fettered creature can be bounced (from two different colors no less), given protection, or a creature can be sacrificed in response. You also only got one reasonable card out of the pack for the probable range of strategies you were on, rather than two reasonable cards, which I do think is objectively bad in a grid draft. There is a lot of interaction you could get in white, blue, or black (especially this early in the draft), and I think after that first pack pick of mystical teachings->impulse, it makes rewind look much stronger than fetters, especially when you get another very strong card with it, that feeds a strategy.

Rewind is insane (though obviously only situationally better than counterspell), because its a very reasonable card independently, and the ceiling on it is, again, very high. The cube has a lot of instant speed mana sinks (one of which you picked from the first pack), there is a large selection of bouncelands to turn it into a draw-go ramp engine, and at its worst, its a free counter once you hit four mana, which is an entirely reasonable proposition in the somewhat slower format it inhabits. Being able to run some threats out, or stabilize the board, and have a hard counter to preserve a favorable board position, is just really good. This is a strong card with a high synergy upside.

The advantage of frantic search is that it can both ramp and filter, tending to draw you into more cards to sequence out during your ramp mana. Because you want to run it alongside bouncelands, the lands being returned to hand make excellent discard fodder for it. You don't play it for the same reasons you play compulsive, and the ceiling on it is much higher. There are some decks it will perform poorly in, but at that point in the draft, your deck could have been trending in a direction where it wanted bouncelands, which makes frantic search the pick.

As your pick was in actuality, it wasn't bad, but none of those cards were particularly powerful, and didn't gel with any sort of coherent strategy that would have made them powerful, nor were you trending towards such a strategy. That pack was so barren, giving how your picks had shaped up at that point, I would have probably just hate drafted the wurm and called it a day, while stressing about my own lack of strategic focus, and that I had just been handed an effectively blank pack.

I think its a pretty big mistake to say grid drafting precludes drafting coherent strategies (which I think is born out by results). The drafting strategy feels very similar to the kind of drafting Ben Stark always recommended for retail limited formats (where you also don't know what you're going to get), where you stay responsive to what the draft is feeding you, and go as deep or shallow as the draft allows.

And Kirblinx's pick patterns here (at least up to pack 8) were feeding you a pretty deep U/W/b flash deck.
 
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