General [Grid League] Penny Cube Grid League

Weird!! Did you have this problem with the old cloudshift site?

I just reproduced it myself with Firefox (it works fine in Chrome), so I should be able to get a fix out sometime soon.
Yes worked like a charm before and i used firefox then too.
 

Aoret

Developer
Yes worked like a charm before and i used firefox then too.
Tyvm for the info Meltyman. I'm away from home this weekend but will see what I'm able to get done on this. I know it's a pain to not be able to use your normal browser for stuff.

Really interesting that the change of hosts messed this up, I changed very, very little source code. But hey, programming is weird :D
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Well aston won, going 3-0 with me getting only two points. Kind of dull games, with me unable to really ever put myself in a position where I could dictate the games tempo. I felt both decks were pretty equivalent, but he just ran much better than I did.

Here is the deck

Screenshot_62.png
 
WI felt both decks were pretty equivalent, but he just ran much better than I did.

Here is the deck


Hi Grillo! I watched a decent amount from Aston's side. He noticed you choosing to take mulligans a lot of matches, which could've been due to your 15 lands. (He played 17 lands.) Aston's deck also had a higher curve than yours (which assume translates to more raw power). I thought your two-for-ones and good removal would give you a lot of game, though. How did the games feel for you in terms of explicit pain points?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
No, he was just running better than I was. Only the one game where I mulliganed to 5 was due to not having enough land. I was getting kind of land heavy hands, and you can see in all of those games I don't have problems hitting my land drops. I do get color screwed for a long time m1g2, which is pretty funny.

I tend to be pretty aggressive with mulligans if I don't think the hand will develop well though, which might be a habit from pauper that I shouldn't be porting over to limited.

I just could never develop the board state that I needed. My threats were pretty consistently just curving out into his removal curve, which made my counters much worse, as I couldn't really hold up mana, as I needed to catch up on board. As you noted, his top end was better than mine, and once I had to start tapping out, it would leave me vulnerable to his top end. A lot of those games, I felt like I was just a turn behind from developing the type of game state that I needed (which I know is hard to see from the footage), but usually he would either have the top end threat at that point, or just the right answer, and I would be behind again.

There is only so much you can do when your turn 1 chronomaton is consistently meeting a turn 1 sunlance. As was the turn 2 suspend riftwing, turn 3 mangara, turn 5 (I think) flickerwisp against my bounceland draw (which I actually did alright against). And that vines on the mistfire adept was a beating too. But thats the game sometimes; what are you going to do?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Both Wumpus and Ink-eyes I think would have been pretty bad. They just didn't have much in the way of enablers, and I never actually missed them in any of the games.

Looking at the lists, I think I actually had more mana smoothing than you, and capsule seems pretty similar to compulsive. I'm not even sure its fair to say that you had more raw power, outside of the artisan, but you did have a lot more disruption than I did.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
If you want to go over the games and make any technical criticisms i'm all ears.

Though I figure you're probably just giving me a hard time, which is fine
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
If you want to go over the games and make any technical criticisms i'm all ears.

Though I figure you're probably just giving me a hard time, which is fine

This is not giving you a hard time, this is just me being my usual tongue in cheek self ;)

Sadly I didn't watch the games (which run for a good two hours anyway), but looking at the decklists, I would say you have good mana, good removal, and some real late game threats (mainly Chronomaton, Mindshrieker, Lorescale Coatl, Galvanic Juggernaut and Draining Whelk). Nantuko Husk doesn't look super sexy in your list, I probably would have played Ink-Eyes over it, which can do pretty filthy things to stuff you countered or destroyed. Aston's fixing looks a hair better, but not much. He too has good removal (a lot of it exiles or arrests), and a good endgame (Moldervine Cloak on evasive, Skaab Goliath and Artisan of Kozilek). If I had to predict a winner based on the lists alone, I would have picked your deck Grillo, as you run about even amounts of removal, both have good fixing, but you have more must kill threats and better card flow (three Temples help here as well!) than Aston. If he sticks one of his threats though, they're much bigger than anything your deck can muster (apart from the grow threats, but those take time), so I expect that's how the rails come off if they do.
 

Aoret

Developer
If you want to go over the games and make any technical criticisms i'm all ears.

Though I figure you're probably just giving me a hard time, which is fine

Chiming in to explain a bit since I did click like on Onder's post: my general feeling is that, almost universally, when someone says "I just ran bad" or something similar, that there are at least some things you could've done to affect the outcome of the match. This isn't to dogpile on you Grillo; I'd be talking out of my ass if I tried to offer criticism because I don't know the format at all.

Basically I kinda just have a distaste for these types of statements in general. Is it possible that your opponent ran better than you in a given match? Sure. But I also almost never buy the notion that there weren't things under your control that you could've done differently, thus my distaste. Magic is really, really complicated.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Chiming in to explain a bit since I did click like on Onder's post: my general feeling is that, almost universally, when someone says "I just ran bad" or something similar, that there are at least some things you could've done to affect the outcome of the match. This isn't to dogpile on you Grillo; I'd be talking out of my ass if I tried to offer criticism because I don't know the format at all.

Basically I kinda just have a distaste for these types of statements in general. Is it possible that your opponent ran better than you in a given match? Sure. But I also almost never buy the notion that there weren't things under your control that you could've done differently, thus my distaste. Magic is really, really complicated.

Yeah, I can never resist making fun of such a statement, even if it's true. It's all in jest though, and nothing personal. Do note that you give a pretty great run down later in the same post, where you sum up where the match went wrong. You were running a game of catch up. I think one of the reasons why people harp on statements like this is because they can read like "he won because he got lucky". Basically you're sounding dismissive of the strengths of your opponent's deck and his or her play skills.

Then again, sometimes they do just simply run better than you. Like I posted before, if I'd had to take a guess beforehand, I would not have picked Aston's deck as the favorite, and I certainly wouldn't have thought he'ld pull off a clean sweep!
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Chiming in to explain a bit since I did click like on Onder's post: my general feeling is that, almost universally, when someone says "I just ran bad" or something similar, that there are at least some things you could've done to affect the outcome of the match. This isn't to dogpile on you Grillo; I'd be talking out of my ass if I tried to offer criticism because I don't know the format at all.

Basically I kinda just have a distaste for these types of statements in general. Is it possible that your opponent ran better than you in a given match? Sure. But I also almost never buy the notion that there weren't things under your control that you could've done differently, thus my distaste. Magic is really, really complicated.

I think there might be a little bit of a misunderstanding when I say that he ran better than me, because so often the community invokes that idea unproductively, and it comes across as a little insulting to the opponent.

I've been watching a lot of Jeff Hoogland streams a lot, and seeing the sort of bad beats a high ranked player can experience in MTGO leagues, or the number of times he just draws well to a win is kind of eye opening. Draw a few too many lands, hit a little bit better off of some draws, is all it can take. You focus on the things you can control, and good players will select lines that maximize their ability to develop a game to the point where they can win, but ultimately they are maximizing odds in their favor, and sometimes the best laid plans just peter out over the course of a small match sample, and I see a very good player, with a deck they know intimately, sitting there with a 0-3 or 1-3 record.

Thats pretty much how I felt in all of these matches. The deck itself was good, and I felt my play was pretty reasonable (better than last week) though obviously not perfect. I just was never really in any of the games.

My deck's strategy really didn't line up well against his and which I think I've explained pretty well why. In that instance you can still win, but you need a certain sequence of draws, and you need them to not have certain things at certain times. If you compare the flow of the first game to the others, I think that kind of bears that out, with my subsequent hands all developing awkwardly against him.

I was in a similar spot last week, but was lucky in the sense that kirblinx got more slow draws than draws where he could exert early pressure. I can point to scoreboard, and certainly I did things to contribute to me winning, but that doesn't change the reality that his deck was better positioned to beat mine, and I was dependent on him lacking certain draw sequences to even have a chance.

I was in that spot again this week, and it just didn't happen, which is fine. Thats magic.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
- Ode to the Final Round -
When this grid league concept had come to fruition
I did not expect to have a chance to win the competition
Meltyman started strong, but his 'goodstuff' has now started to fail
He can still rally up second place but he needs to nail
His own win against Grillo, while hoping Aston or I lose hard
This should hopefully encourage him to draft the right card(s)

Speaking of Grillo, enthusiastic runner of the league
The poor guy seems to have succumbed to 'Penny Fatigue'
His only win was against me, which was really hard fought
Although his heartbreaking loss to Aston last round meant it was for naught
Cheer up Grillo, this league was awesome and a great pile of fun
Now beat down Meltyman, and it will be a job well done

I've drudged along winning some and losing well
Which now gives me the opportunity to rain hell
As Aston has dominated nearly everyone he has played
Except for me, which I gladly displayed
So meet us if you will, for the final round
To decide who is the champion and the best around
Of Penny Pincher Grid Drafts and Magic Online
Because I really do hope that the stars will align
I will try my absolute hardest to stand firm
Although, I may have trouble without Pelakka Wurm
 
If you guys want to check in with me beforehand, I can try to arrange streaming commentary (maybe with a guest) for the matches / draft.


This is going back through the thread a bit but it might be cool to try and arrange this for the final round, if you're still interested.
 
The last time I played Kirblinx it was early on Saturday morning, we could aim for that time again if that works for you.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
So Aston and I will be playing in the finals in about 9.5 hours from this post (Saturday 9am GMT)

Jason should be streaming our matches (don't think we are going to have hand cam going, it takes a bit to work).
So if you want to come by and check it out please do. Appropriate links will be posted closer to go time.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
I knew Aston would be in white blinky value town, so I tried to go underneath it with goblins:
ryxnOJW.png


Realising this was a bad idea (no thanks to mulligans) I shifted to the big Mystical Teachings variant:
gxlq597.png


I'm going to keep people guessing as to whom the victor is at this point...
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
My money is on aston, since if you're boarding into a different deck that suggests you were losing g1 pretty consistently?

He's also running a very consistent deck, that he's comfortable with.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Alright, now that Grillo and Melty will be playing their game within the next 12 hours or so, I guess it is time to reveal how Aston and I went. If you watched his stream or dug through my youtube channel you might have been able to guess.

So first off, the videos:
Draft:
Match 1:
Match 2:
Match 3:
Now onto the match writeups:
M1G1: I mulligan to 6. Get a early Goblin Glory Chaser, Spikeshot Elder and Trusty Machete. I beat him down to 10 until a Bone Shredder that gets Momentary Blinked in response to echo wipes my board. I get stuck on 3 land with my 4 drops in hand, a Skaab Goliath comes down and I can't find removal to deal with it. When I do, I didn't have the black to cast it anyway. :\

M1G2: I mull to 6 again getting a one-lander, but I get Spikeshot Elder and Trusty Machete. It slowly pecks in while I keep things off Aston's board. I swampcycle my Twisted Abomination I sided in and realise I have no swamps in my deck :oops:
Aston plays a Juggernaut, which I deal with with the Elder, but then the Skaab Goliath comes down again. I haven't played another creature since the Elder and am now way behind. I find a Jeskai Elder to play, but my Spikeshot Elder gets Crib Swapped and I find nothing to deal with the goliath again.

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Got to hate mulligans. I guess that is what happens with low land counts (and not putting in any swamps). So I swallow my pride and hope for the best going into match 2.

M2G1: I get Machete + Spikeshot Elder early again, but it gets Ghastly Demised. I drop Goblin Sharpshooter and Beetleback Chief, Aston drops Somnophore and Riftwing Cloudskate bouncing the Sharpshooter. I decide to replay the Sharpshooter, and a Terarrion to hope to punch through with my Reckless Bushwhacker next turn. Alas, he drops a Thrashing Wumpus + Swamp and before he even has time to activate it I rage concede.

So now I am regretting every life choice I have ever made. The deck is a pile and I am just getting absolutely trounced. So I stare at my sideboard and just say, I need to do something different. Which is when I shift into the other deck that you can see in my post over (or two posts above, whatever). I pretty much just cut the go-wide and bring in an extra land and all the big things. I mean, the other deck was horrible, surely it couldn't get any worse?

M2G2: I keep the slowest hand in the world, but at least it seems like Aston had done the same, as the first significant play was on turn 6 when I cast Moltensteel Dragon with counterspell backup. I get to Memory Lapse a Ghastly Demise, which lets me bash in with the Dragon, which I successfully Ninja in Ink-Eyes. I did this to avoid the Ghastly Demise (he had no creatures in his yard). I also get to Miscalculation his Resounding Wave at end of turn. Aston does nothing, so Ink-Eyes beats him down to 10. I pass, but Aston decides to Death Rattle Ink-Eyes (silly non regen clause). So I flash in my Draining Whelk, only to have it get Ghastly Demised (I forgot about that), but at least it saved Ink-Eyes.
Aston then plays Juggernaut and passes. During my turn I Incinerate his Juggernaut, he tried to save it with a Momentary Blink, which I Mana Leak. So then I get to hit in with Ink-Eyes down to 5, get the Juggernaut onto my side and pass turn. Aston draws his card and concedes.

Phew, so at least this version of the deck makes me feel like I have a chance. Lets see if I can continue with this:

M2G3: Now this. This was a game. I'm not going to give a play by play for the early parts of this game as it did go on for a while. Let's just start talking about the game here:
buZU2hq.png

So this is in Aston's turn and I had traded the Bonesplitter in for a card, which was the Teachings. So I take two from the Cloudskate and find Draining Whelk with the Mystical Teachings. I have my turn, I draw an Island, and am sitting there with all these black cards and nothing to do. I am really hoping the Mindshrieker mills a Chromatic Star, so then I can get a black source. I pass turn, and Aston mills an Island (phew).
Aston then mills me twice, hitting Miscalculation and Terrarion (yes). I get hit in the air down to 10, I sac the goat for the Terrarion and get to have my go. I draw a Jeskai Elder, play it and cross my fingers that Mindshrieker doesn't kill me. Aston takes his turn, mills me, hits Moltensteel Dragon (ouch). Mills again, hits Beetleback Chief. Sigh. So that makes an 11/11 Mindshrieker. I am at 10 life. I type gg. Aston swings in with just the Mindshrieker. Wait. WAIT!! :eek:
I discard Ink-Eyes to trading post to gain 4 life................... and go down to 3. Hooray! What I don't understand is why Aston didn't pump again, he had 3 lands untapped. Although it was a Mountain on top anyway.
Then I get to turn things around.
lULriIQ.png

I don't know why Aston blocked here. I get to clear his board and keep up counterspells. Aston also disconnected after this play, so that may have had something to do with it. He came back 5 minutes later. Tries to save them both with Ghostly Flicker (ok, now I understand the block), which I Mana Leak.

Aston flushes out the Draining Whelk with an Entomber Exarch and kills it with a Ghastly Demise and passes. This lets me swing in for two, draw an Exclude with the elder and pass. Aston tries a Bone Shredder, which I Exclude, and follows it up with a Death Rattle on the Elder. So I sac it for the Moltensteel Dragon (with Trading Post) and flashback Teachings for Incinerate.

I get to cast my Dragon, it gets instantly Crib Swapped (I should have sacced it to the post). I attack Aston down to 5 and pass. He tries to slam down the Skaab Goliath, but I have Memory Lapse to stop it. So with the 2 1/1's and the Incinerate in hand I can finish Aston off. Phew.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At this point I am feeling a bit better, but knowing I have to start off with my trashy deck isn't what I want, but oh well, at least I won one match.

M3G1: I don't keep an aggressive enough hand. I get to play a Dragon Fodder into Reckless Bushwhacker after a Beetleback Chief on turn 5 for some decent burst damage, but the fact that Aston already had a Riftwing Cloudskate and Wing Splicer mitigated a lot of the damage. Also, the fact that next turn he gets off the train at value town didn't help either.
5Sh6Are.png

I try and pressure as much as I can while keeping things back to block the golems (if I choose to shoot down the Splicer) but a Mindshrieker soon follows and I die in the air regardless.

M3G2: I shift into my grindy deck and hope for the best. So this is turn 4.
aeT0gIZ.png

I opt to play the Dragon, as unless I get unlucky, I should be able to block the Mindshrieker. What I should have down is play the Sulfurous Blast. I guess that Wing Splicer was stuck in my head from the last game. I guess that is hindsight, but anyway I play the Dragon and pass.
Aston plays a scryland, mills my Beetleback Chief (unlucky) and swings for 5. I return the favor by attacking with the Dragon for 6 and pass. Aston attacks with the Shrieker (no mills) I decide to Murderous Cut it, and Aston just passes.
On my upkeep Aston tries to Crib Swap the Dragon to which I Mana Leak then hit him down to 9, keeping up Miscalculation. It however dies to a Death Rattle and I am now floundering for win conditions. We play draw-go for a little bit until Aston tries to Gush, which I Draining Whelk (probably bad idea) and it dies to Ghastly Demise. The next turn he Unburial Rites his Mindshreiker, uh oh.
When he tries to attack with it I Into the Roil, which is met with a Momentary Blink, ugh. I get to Incinerate it after that, as he is tapped out. He then casts a Jhessian Thief, which I forget to Exclude, and it keeps drawing him cards while I keep drawing lands. I try and Sulfurous Blast it, but he saves it with Frantic Search :(
He then reanimates a Riftwing Cloudskate and I can't draw any threat. I end up with 12 cards left in my library only ever casting two creatures (Dragon and Whelk). I guess misplays and bad variance do add up to game losses.

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So the final results were: 0-2, 2-1, 0-2
So Aston gets 6 points I get 2.

Mindshrieker is nuts. Definite MVP on Aston's side. It is just so threatening.

This makes Aston the outright winner (although I'll let Grillo announce final placings) and it means I didn't get enough points to lock second place. Meltyman has the chance to take it if he beats Grillo today (tonight? timezones are hard).

As much as I was lamenting this final round I had a good time, especially in retrospect. Come on Grillo, I'm rooting for you. You need to come and join the 2-3 crew.
 
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