Inscho's Graveyard Combo Cube

[TrainmasterGT]

savage but i agree also am i the only one that now has a obssestion with making boros not just tokens/fun police/enchantment equipment because of lorehome

The funny thing is that the first game I played today against a Boros Lorehold deck in Strixhaven limited, it was an aggro deck that was only trying to curve out with creatures.

Boros can be tricky to build a non-aggressive version of, since the overlap between Red and White are the colors with the best cheap threats and the best 1-cmc removal, but the worst card advantage engines over all. It also doesn't help that WOTC doesn't normally design R/W cards to do anything other than lend towards aggressive strategies.

Boros Control leveraging Planeswalkers and Removal Creatures is something that some people have had success with in environments without great card-advantage engines where trading one-for-one is worthwhile. As you mention Cheat cards can also work in Boros, although you have to be a little careful with those as other color combinations may leverage those pieces for undesired effects.

Personally, I've found that embracing the aggressive slant to Boros can actually lead to really fun results when it is implemented well. While a lot of the low-hanging fruit like "tokens" or "go wide with equipment" and the like can feel a little gimmicky when implemented poorly, there are a lot of unique synergies that one can build around when digging a little under the surface, such as artifact aggro and prowess.

Obviously it seems like you want to take things a different direction than is seen in a lot of cubes, so I hope you find some new strategies to play or ways to improve things you currently have working here on Riptide.

 

[Erik Twice]

I've found Wildfire-like decks like to be WR. You can actually build many atypical control or midrange decks in that shell using cards like Sevinne's Reclamation, Land Tax, Cataclysm, Seismic Assault, etc.

The main issue is that most WR creatures are not defensive.

 

[inscho]

I’ve supported boros sneak attack for a few years now. I only recently cut nahiri. In the boros reanimator vein, I exploit the larks a bit more than going with through the breach which is at home at a higher power level. I no longer run eldrazi and the higher end sneak attack targets

 

[inscho]

Prior to lowering my power level, my boros archetypes were:

RW: Tokens, Wildfire, Sneak Attack, Artifact Aggro

Summaries are listed in the first post.

I’m not sure if wildfire in boros is that great now that land tax is out of the list. But any red based guild that supports artifacts can pretty easily be a relevant wildfire deck imo

A newer archetype I’m exploring in boros is a cycling control deck with an Approach of the Second Sun alternate win-con...this was a little more interesting before I cut Alhammarret’s Archive. Maybe I should bring the archive back...hm

 

[Erik Twice]

Inscho, is your newer version of the cube just an excuse to play Vesperlak?

Just wondering.

 

[Bartender]

I’ve supported boros sneak attack for a few years now. I only recently cut nahiri. In the boros reanimator vein, I exploit the larks a bit more than going with through the breach which is at home at a higher power level. I no longer run eldrazi and the higher end sneak attack targets

Etc

i forgot about goblin engeneer and welder thats a great idea. but it usualy ends up splashing into black or plays like a burn control deck with a epic end con

i compleetly forgot about goblin welder and goblin engeneer these are awsome in combination with the gearhulks

 

[inscho]

i compleetly forgot about goblin welder and goblin engeneer these are awsome in combination with the gearhulks

Absolutely. I ran the grixis ones for a long time. Don’t forget Scuttling Doom Engine which is a personal favorite of mine

Or Ancient Stone Idol which is a little too good for my cube, but really good with the sneak strategy

 

[inscho]

Inscho, is your newer version of the cube just an excuse to play Vesperlak?

Just wondering.

Kind of!

Bonzo’s cube is what really got me thinking of lowering the power level of my cube. I really enjoyed the process of drafting his cube, and it made me realize how much more difficult it is to deeply weave themes at a higher power level. A lot of thematic glue cards become viable at lower power levels. I also need cycling to be viable to tie everything together.

Vesperlark was a card I loved from a design perspective. I began scouring for cards it could reanimate and looking for common themes in the pool of cards and thats when I realize how it could bridge some strategies in a unique way.



So from that pool it can facilitate reanimator, artifact, blink, sacrifice, mill, and ramp....all while just being a solid card in its own right. It definitely guided some of the structure of the cube

 

[Bartender]

Hey me again is big spell combo like Death cloud a thing in your cube or even viable?

for what its worth im on keeping marionette master and doing the getto thing and just adding another card in each of your colors

 

[Erik Twice]

Can Vesperlark bring back Multani and Fiend Artisan? Or do they have different power while they are in the graveyard as well?

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Can Vesperlark bring back Multani and Fiend Artisan? Or do they have different power while they are in the graveyard as well?

According to the Notes and Rules Information for Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar:
"Multani’s ability that modifies its power and toughness applies only while it’s on the battlefield. In all other zones, it’s a 0/0 creature card."

These types of abilities only apply in other zones when the creature's power or toughness has a *, such as Crackling Drake and Tarmogoyf.

 

[inscho]

Hey me again is big spell combo like Death cloud a thing in your cube or even viable?

Yeah, Death Cloud has been pretty good for me. It's a fun buildaround.

 

[Erik Twice]

Still, would you say you have been increasing the power level since you first toned it down? I'm curious.

 

[inscho]

Still, would you say you have been increasing the power level since you first toned it down? I'm curious.

Probably and that might be part of my problem. My tendency is to always use the most efficient and flexible cards for their role....which isn’t always the best for the balance of the format. I periodically have to dial it back down

That said, I have a couple drafts that I’m starting to work on that are higher powered to see if I can make it work in a way that I’m satisfied with. Maybe I’ll maintain two lists for the GCC: one higher powered and the other mid-powered like currently constructed

 

[Brad]

Group B is mostly newcomers that are closer to casual on the "casual<>competitive" spectrum...this group almost exclusively drafts standard retail limited, and has exhibited no interest in cube whatsoever, they're all fairly average in skill level...not bad, not great.

Old post of yours, as I went through the thread, but do you think you could resdesign a format like this for a casual playgroup? I've been wondering this lately for my own cube, as this sounds similar to my playgroup. I often feel like all the graveyard tricks and interactions are probably too much. There's also a lot of additional text on so many cards to tack on a graveyard related effect.

 

[inscho]

Old post of yours, as I went through the thread, but do you think you could resdesign a format like this for a casual playgroup? I've been wondering this lately for my own cube, as this sounds similar to my playgroup. I often feel like all the graveyard tricks and interactions are probably too much. There's also a lot of additional text on so many cards to tack on a graveyard related effect.

I don't think so. I should clarify, that this group seems to enjoy the process of busting retail packs and keeping the cards as much or more than they enjoy drafting. I think that cube while mechanically similar, doesn't scratch the same itch for them.

The original premise of the cube was to create an environment that explores zone interactions and a wide range of play axes...which is a fundamentally complex M.O. I could make a cube for a less skilled playgroup, but it would be a radical departure.

 

[inscho]

Just made a big update. Power level has been dialed down again. Went from 380 down to 370 cards.

Out:

Spoiler

In:

Spoiler

Pulled out some good stuff to allow for some other strategies to breath. I realized I hadn't given enough resources to some aggro and control strategies. Things feel a little more balanced now. tbo's card questions made me rethink a few cards I had initially dismissed, and now I have a couple of new angles in the cube that I'm excited about.

I'll start with these:


Aggressive bodies that trigger prowess, provide graveyard hate, and are relevant blink targets. Red was short on blink overlap with white, and these two pair favorably with Seeker of the Way and Heartfire Immolator to re-assert Boros as a vertical aggro pairing in a way that I really like.

A heavier focus on permanent recursion/blink in Selesnya:


Combine with existing "blink a permanent" effects. Or can be pulled from the graveyard via:


I like the idea of letting the sagas play out or blinking them prematurely to get extra uses....a lot more interesting than just blinking a Wall of Omens over and over again. The Binding of the Titans pairs with green's other self-mill effects to turbocharge Selesnya’s graveyard interactions. I'm considering Cloudstone Curio now as well

This is a small bit of flavor, but I'm excited to add these glue cards that combine favorably with mill effects over more generic options:


Shifting some of white's role in token generation away by cutting:


and bringing it more into blue with:


which goes well with the cycling and looting themes...and is a nice bridge between:


In place of mentor and the angel, I'm bringing the creaturefall bros back for another go:


Lots of other shifts in archetypes, but these are the ones I'm thinking about the most right now.

 

[Brad]

Bro you can't just add Olivia's Dragoon when I trashed on it in my thread!
Love the Woe-Reaper. Personal favorite grave-hate-Lion.

Trove Warden looks really cool. I'd be worried that it can hit too much value sometimes if there's fetching involved.

Mystic Sanctuary is a card I wish I could run and I'm happy to see you bring it in.

Ghastly Demise could maybe be Necrotic Wound if the exile feels really relevant. It only counts creatures, so that's a loss.

I haven't played with Bloodhall Priest for a long time, but I pulled it from my list last night because it only supports the all-in aggro madness deck and doesn't do that so spectacularly, either. At least other narrow cards like Welder are great at their jobs.

Consider Bond of Revival if you're in the market for haste reanimator.

You convinced me to add those red cards. Dire Fleet is kind of hard to get value and does a nice little exile, so that's cool. The immediate value on Devils is worrisome to my fear of generic ETB value idiots, but it's got some drawbacks to it.

Oust/Lapse into mill is cute. Maybe Scheming Symmetry if you want to get really cute.

I always found Mentor really lame. Needing to spend 33-100% more mana per creature felt too cumbersome. Bygone, on the other hand, is a 2/3 flyer for 3 at worst. It gives you options on when to draw and increases your artifact count. I realize Mentor works with tokens, but that feels like it's asking for a ton of mana, too.

How is Drake Haven? I have half the "fo:discard -o:madness" cards as you in a 25% larger cube and I kind of want to remove it to reduce my token pile. I feel peer pressured to run it lol.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Bro you can't just add Olivia's Dragoon when I trashed on it in my thread!

Hey Olivia's Dragoon is really good! The only reason I cut it was because I stopped needing discard bears, if I ever start supporting combo Reanimator, Madness, or Discard Matters again, it will be one of the first cards coming back (barring something insane in MH2 with a similar effect). It's one of the best cards at doing what it does.

 

[Brad]

Bears Zzzz (can we get a sleeping emoji?)

That's my issue with it. If you're not the Madness deck, it's just a bear. I drafted Madness a few times and didn't feel like I wanted it. MH2 could totally give us something. Hopefully in red for my BR and ravnic's RG lol.

 

[inscho]

Bro you can't just add Olivia's Dragoon when I trashed on it in my thread!

lol....it's pretty solid in lower powered. It's good in dredge strategies in addition to madness. It's not ideal, but Heir of Falkenrath is a flip, and Oona's Prowler is asking for trouble.

Trove Warden looks really cool. I'd be worried that it can hit too much value sometimes if there's fetching involved.

It's fairly slow and the fact that it has to die to retrieve the cards is a significant hoop to jump through. I've wanted a fair Sun Titan for years and this is about as close as it gets

I always found Mentor really lame. Needing to spend 33-100% more mana per creature felt too cumbersome. Bygone, on the other hand, is a 2/3 flyer for 3 at worst. It gives you options on when to draw and increases your artifact count. I realize Mentor works with tokens, but that feels like it's asking for a ton of mana, too.

It's inclusion was more about it serving as a pivot card between blink and tokens. It's pretty slow without mana elves. I'm not sold on it.

How is Drake Haven? I have half the "fo:discard -o:madness" cards as you in a 25% larger cube and I kind of want to remove it to reduce my token pile. I feel peer pressured to run it lol.

It's slow and awkward at times, but can get out of control once it gets going. I'm currently re-evaluating my power level (again) to determine whether I need drop it down further or scrap it and redesign some archetypes. I like it as an intersection card, but it does rub some of my design tendencies the wrong way. I don't think it's a hard cut for you


BTW, I have 4 different alternative lists that I'm revising right now so things are pretty fluid right now.

 

[inscho]

v3.0 is up:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/inscho

This version is an attempt to blend the synergy weaving of v2.0:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/17j2

with the explosiveness and tempo of v1.0:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/8c0

General Summary of Changes:

• Cube is up to 380
• Decrease in some slow/clunky mechanical payoffs (Astral Drift, Bone Miser, etc). Greater emphasis on mana economy. Drake Haven is still a potential cut, but I want more testing time.
• Small increase in kicker (Burst Lightning, Nullpriest of Oblivion, Blink of an Eye, Bloodchief’s Thirst), and general increase in removal quality. I mentioned why I've been considering kicker more lately here
• Return of 1cmc discard. Agonizing Remorse always felt bad at 2cmc
• Return of some higher power enablers (Tinker, Rotting Regisaur, Wheel of Fortune, Protean Hulk, Mirari’s Wake, Exploration) I waffled back and forth between adding some cards that were deemed auto-picks in the old version: Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Smuggler's Copter, and Hangarback Walker...not ready to go there just yet, but I'm one step closer.
• Added 10 fixing lands in the form of the shocklands. Replaced the bouncelands in non-blue guilds with more appropriate fixing (Horizon Canopy, Blackcleave Cliffs, Inspiring Vantage, Raging Ravine, Fetid Heath, Twilight Mire
• Made some general tweaks to balance archetypes...too many of some effects, too few of others. I feel like the range of cards when you sample packs has a greater breadth now.

Some of these revisions have been prompted by the ideas of our new community members (Funch & co). It definitely helped me see where my cube had started down a path that wasn't quite what I wanted. The increase in fixing lands was definitely inspired by Funch. 10% fixing was just way too low.

I'm feeling pretty good about these changes. This is the closest I've been able to get to the original GCC and still maintain an exploratory drafting experience rather than an on-rails experience. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Spoiler: Cuts

Spoiler: Adds:

 

[TrainmasterGT]

I'm a really big fan of these additions!

 

[Erik Twice]

Ah, Inscho's update day. Or how I call it, the "let's copy whatever he is doing" day

 

[inscho]

Ah, Inscho's update day. Or how I call it, the "let's copy whatever he is doing" day

Ha! I'm creeping back up to the power level of the older version, which is closer to your power level. There's definitely more overlap now than there has been.



I did a lot of sample drafts yesterday, and have a couple of issues I noted.

There's an obvious lack in a non-creature artifact payoff for welding, ramping, and tinkering, I tried to get by without one, but I think I need to bring back one of:



None of them are quite what I'm looking for, but I didn't see a better option during my scryfall search. I'm all ears for suggestions.

In cutting Bone Miser and Faith of the Devoted the Dimir Control archetype has taken a hit. I still don't particularly like either. Dimir Control is still a very viable archetype, but it lacks some cohesion. The archetype was more discard oriented, but I think pivoting even more towards dredge control is what I need to do. It's feels pretty natural with the mill and self-mill archetypes present with Ashiok, Dream Render, Thassa's Oracle, Wall of Lost Thoughts, and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries

I may be adding both:


And I may switch out Murderous Cut for something that doesn't strip the graveyard. Pteramander would slot in well into the archetype, but it doesn't do much for other archetypes. Eternal Scourge is a card I'm always trying to squeeze in, and could be a good option here.

I'm interested to see what proves to have the most value out of:



They are all firmly value reanimation effects, and it feels like it may be one too many. Dread Return provides the most explosiveness. Blood for Bones is more of an engine card, and compliments Welders and Sneak Attack in Red. Nullpriest has the most flexibility and is serviceable in a wider range of decks.

White three and four drop creatures needs some work, but I'm not sure what to do there.