Oh, right that's a good point. That colorless level up cost really makes it busted. Easy pass there.
Inscho's Graveyard Combo Cube
- Thread starter inscho
- Start date
Oh, right that's a good point. That colorless level up cost really makes it busted. Easy pass there.
Still alive. I only like to play magic in person, so I haven't played in about a year now, but I just picked my cube back up to get it ready for when life hopefully returns to some semblance of normalcy this Summer.
Currently trying to streamline what some of the guilds are doing. Selesnya seems to always be the guild that needs the most attention.
Out:
In:
Coming back to my list with fresh eyes, I can see how I took the triangulation of some strategies a little too far. A lot of the cute stuff in Selesnya had to do with an infatuation with restoration specialist and vesperlark tricks. It was too many hoops to jump through to get a cohesive deck, and I think it made Selesnya less of a natural pairing mid-draft. I'm pivoting away from creaturefall strategy and investing the guild more in the graveyard. This is something that Cube Cobra user Zubat has employed in their list for a while now, but I was hesitant to adopt: http://cubecobra.com/cube/list/i50
Speaking of Zubat, they drafted a couple of nice decks on the back of these changes:
I think my list is up to date with the latest sets, but let me know if I'm missing anything that you think should be here!
Currently trying to streamline what some of the guilds are doing. Selesnya seems to always be the guild that needs the most attention.
Out:
In:
Coming back to my list with fresh eyes, I can see how I took the triangulation of some strategies a little too far. A lot of the cute stuff in Selesnya had to do with an infatuation with restoration specialist and vesperlark tricks. It was too many hoops to jump through to get a cohesive deck, and I think it made Selesnya less of a natural pairing mid-draft. I'm pivoting away from creaturefall strategy and investing the guild more in the graveyard. This is something that Cube Cobra user Zubat has employed in their list for a while now, but I was hesitant to adopt: http://cubecobra.com/cube/list/i50
Speaking of Zubat, they drafted a couple of nice decks on the back of these changes:
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I think my list is up to date with the latest sets, but let me know if I'm missing anything that you think should be here!
Drafted a RB deck.
It's possible that I stayed too attached to the Marionette Master, but it's probably my favorite card, so...
The themes in the color combination flowed really well and I felt like I could go in multiple directions both macro archetype wise (aggro or control) and micro archetype (sacrifice, artifacts, stax, discard).
It was very challenging to draft and I made a bunch of mistakes. The deck construction was rough too, but that is the signs of a deep format, so nice job
One card that stood out to me as being "meh" (especially for a gold slot) was Chainer, Nightmare Adept. It's four mana, it's fragile and the themes felt supported enough with the mono-colored options. I could very well be misevaluating the card.
I was thinking that a card like Garna could replace Chainer
You keep the haste portion, but you can enable some crazy plays with Zombie Infestation, Collective Defiance, Stinkweed Imp, Magus of the Wheel and probably a ton more. Kind of feels like Bag of Holding. Otherwise a classic like Murderous Redcap could fit, but the ETB might be too powerful.
Another card I'd like to recommend (based on this one draft, so grain of salt etc.) is
It would have been sweet here as an artifact to trigger both Scrawler and Master, it's a one drop for other decks and it wears equipment and auras like a champ.
Might try a few more if I have the chance, was fun!
RB sacrifice, artifact, discard?!
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It's possible that I stayed too attached to the Marionette Master, but it's probably my favorite card, so...
The themes in the color combination flowed really well and I felt like I could go in multiple directions both macro archetype wise (aggro or control) and micro archetype (sacrifice, artifacts, stax, discard).
It was very challenging to draft and I made a bunch of mistakes. The deck construction was rough too, but that is the signs of a deep format, so nice job
One card that stood out to me as being "meh" (especially for a gold slot) was Chainer, Nightmare Adept. It's four mana, it's fragile and the themes felt supported enough with the mono-colored options. I could very well be misevaluating the card.
I was thinking that a card like Garna could replace Chainer
You keep the haste portion, but you can enable some crazy plays with Zombie Infestation, Collective Defiance, Stinkweed Imp, Magus of the Wheel and probably a ton more. Kind of feels like Bag of Holding. Otherwise a classic like Murderous Redcap could fit, but the ETB might be too powerful.
Another card I'd like to recommend (based on this one draft, so grain of salt etc.) is
It would have been sweet here as an artifact to trigger both Scrawler and Master, it's a one drop for other decks and it wears equipment and auras like a champ.
Might try a few more if I have the chance, was fun!
Thanks for the draft! Definitely a tough build.
Chainer might be too slow. I haven't seen him in action yet, but I had similar experience with Garna. As tantalizing as the combo plays are with Garna, it rarely actualized for me. The situational timing while having 5 mana open is just tough.
I've run vault skirge for brief moments in the past as well....maybe I should try it again. It certainly makes sense. It just always felt low impact, and never seemed to make a deck's final 40.
Chainer might be too slow. I haven't seen him in action yet, but I had similar experience with Garna. As tantalizing as the combo plays are with Garna, it rarely actualized for me. The situational timing while having 5 mana open is just tough.
I've run vault skirge for brief moments in the past as well....maybe I should try it again. It certainly makes sense. It just always felt low impact, and never seemed to make a deck's final 40.
Hey There,
as a sister graveyard cube-owner, I like to check in on your latest changes whenever I do big updates.
I've found Thassa's Oracle to be too strong/easy to pull off. What has your experience with it been like
(Similarly, Altar of Dementia proved to be too strong, curious how you evaluate it here)
as a sister graveyard cube-owner, I like to check in on your latest changes whenever I do big updates.
I've found Thassa's Oracle to be too strong/easy to pull off. What has your experience with it been like
(Similarly, Altar of Dementia proved to be too strong, curious how you evaluate it here)
I feel like Oracle has been reasonably powered in my experience. However, I haven't gathered any new data in over a year now! I don't suspect things have changed much. The combo component is a very important aspect to maintain in my environment. I've veered a little more towards midrange synergy than I'd normally like, but I'm enjoying the intuitiveness and deck building this current version encourages. It's possible that I'm designing out the combo slowly out of necessity, but I hope not.
If oracle does turn out to be an issue, then swapping it out for Laboratory Maniac is an easy solution. The timing is much more difficult to work around, and the lower toughness matters.
I've never had a problem with Altar. It is a little more difficult to recur from the graveyard and I don't run many tutors that can search for it. Few cards offer a similar dynamic in a graveyard format. It'd be a hard cut for me.
I like your list! You have a several cards that have been on my maybeboard. I'll have to look a little more closely and do some sample drafts when I have some free time.
"Including:
Conspiracy Theorist
That’s probably it."
(From testing/include thread)
This is shocking to me-- I feel like Strixhaven has been one of the greatest boons to gy cubes in a long time (Though the upcoming innistrad sets are sure to take that mantle soon)
Conspiracy Theorist is definitely one of the most exciting cards, though
I know your design/play goals are a little different from mine-- you're definitely a little more lenient on "Everything is graveyard stuff."
Here's a bunch of other cards I think are exciting for Graveyard Centered Cubes
Hofri Ghostforge-- I see you don't run Luminous Broodmoth or Nightmare Shepherd, not sure exactly why but if it's a power level thing, this costing 5 in two colors is interesting to me
Flamethrower SonataPlarrg, Dean of Chaos/c]
Conspiracy Theorist
That’s probably it."
(From testing/include thread)
This is shocking to me-- I feel like Strixhaven has been one of the greatest boons to gy cubes in a long time (Though the upcoming innistrad sets are sure to take that mantle soon)
Conspiracy Theorist is definitely one of the most exciting cards, though
I know your design/play goals are a little different from mine-- you're definitely a little more lenient on "Everything is graveyard stuff."
Here's a bunch of other cards I think are exciting for Graveyard Centered Cubes
Hofri Ghostforge-- I see you don't run Luminous Broodmoth or Nightmare Shepherd, not sure exactly why but if it's a power level thing, this costing 5 in two colors is interesting to me
Flamethrower SonataPlarrg, Dean of Chaos/c]
Thanks for the reply! I want to lay out a little context for my cube, and the reasons some things make the cut and some don't:
- I don't support DFC
- I don't support tribal, and actively avoid anything alluding to tribal support unless the card provides something essential (Cryptbreaker for instance)
- With some regards to design elegance, I try to pare down keywords when convenient, and try to avoid mechanics that reference multiplayer. I don't support Companion, and try to avoid things like Monarch and Partner. I also try to reduce the different types of tokens in the cube whenever convenient. At the end of the day, personal rules are always broken if a card provides something essential.
- More than an exclusive graveyard theme, this cube emphasizes zone interplay and the triangulation of artifact, spell, and land themes which is bound together by the graveyard.
- I'm trying to get the list down to 360 again, so there obviously is only so much room for new cards.
- I wasn't factoring in the new commander spoilers in that post. I'm almost certainly including. Ruin Grinder, Angel of the Ruins and Cursed Mirror. I'm looking hard at Laelia, the Blade Reforged, but Red 3's are just so stacked these days. I also Looking at Osgir, which could take Nahiri's slot.
======
Hofri Ghostforge-- I see you don't run Luminous Broodmoth or Nightmare Shepherd, not sure exactly why but if it's a power level thing, this costing 5 in two colors is interesting to me
I cut Nightmare Shepherd for Mindwrack Demon, but I'm pretty sure this was a mistake. Regarding Broodmoth: I don't like the keyword counters, and only run Titanoth Rex out of design necessity. I also think Broodmoth is too generically strong for my tastes.
Flamethrower Sonata,Plarrg, Dean of Chaos,Lukka, Wayward Bonder Extus, Oriq Overlord-- MDFCs are a pain, so I don't know about these, but each of these as one-sided cards are fantastic imo
Mentioned above
Reconstruct History-- Really exciting to me for obvious reasons
Obviously super powerful, but I'm not sure I prefer the generic value over cards like Showdown of the Skalds and Nahiri, the Harbinger. It's more exciting than Lightning Helix, but I don't want to run (3) 4cmc cards in one guild slot.
Quintorius, Field Historian-- I've found Tormod, the Desecrator to be bordering on too powerful, but a ton of fun to play with. I'm hopeful that means this is perfect, the effect is a lot of fun
I don't support tribal, and this isn't an essential card design-wise. It does self-fuel which is nice similar to Cryptbreaker, but it doesn't fit my current themes for Boros, and 5cmc is a no-go for me.
I really like Tormod which may crack the list, but hate the partner trinket text.
Oriq Warlock-- Maybe too slow? But a really awesome value/combo creature if it lives a turn
Very cool, pretty slow....I don't want this effect on a stick.
Draconic Intervention-- My new favorite Red Wrath, fixes the problems of anger of the gods for me
This is a possibility. I dislike the non-dragon clause, because I don't run any dragons outside of Eternal Dragon which is going to get cut for Angel of the Ruins. I run Realm-Cloaked Giant, because it fulfills a need, but I really don't like the non-giant clause, and will replace it as soon as an alternative presents itself.
Curate-- Bread and butter enabler/cantrip
I missed this on the spoiler. I like it. It might squeeze into the list over Mental Note
Osgir, the Recostructor-- It's Boros Emry*! plus a sac outlet! That also doubles what it gets back
Mentioned above
Laeila, the Blade Reforged-- Just a strong aggro creature that also gets beefed up by interacting with the gy. Could see this being too strong
Mentioned above
Wake the Past-- Not a slam dunk as it stands, but powerful/cool enough to make me think about leaning into supporting it
I don't feel like my artifact support is deep enough to make the 7cmc worthwhile.
Ruin Grinder-- Lava Serpent Variant that works with Goblin Welder and Potentially discard payoffs as well
Mentioned above
And some maybes:
Magma Opus-- I so want spell reanimator to be a thing now
I ran Mizzix's Mastery for the longest time, and it is so much fun. If I ran it and Torrential Gearhulk, I'd be giving this a longer look. I like the design space they are exploring with this.
Venerable Warsinger. Deadly Brew-- Both good, probably neither going to make it into a gold slot?
I missed Warsinger on the spoiler, and I might like it enough to squeeze it in. I like that it asserts the power matters subtheme that I have, and it feels less generically good than Alesha, Who Smiles at Death (which I cut) while fulfilling a similar role.
Agreed on Brew. Cool card, but doesn't crack the a 3 card guild section
Mavinda, Students' AdvocateStonebinder's Familiar-- not sure if these work in my current environment, but I find them intriguing
Mavinda is super interesting. I supported Feather briefly, but cut it as I didn't have adequate design space to support it.
Stonebinder's Familiar is interesting....like Flourishing Fox it feels slightly awkward. One I'll keep an eye on and think about
---Again, different design goals and all that, but I'm still surprised this set felt like a bit of a miss for you.
- I don't support DFC
- I don't support tribal, and actively avoid anything alluding to tribal support unless the card provides something essential (Cryptbreaker for instance)
- With some regards to design elegance, I try to pare down keywords when convenient, and try to avoid mechanics that reference multiplayer. I don't support Companion, and try to avoid things like Monarch and Partner. I also try to reduce the different types of tokens in the cube whenever convenient. At the end of the day, personal rules are always broken if a card provides something essential.
- More than an exclusive graveyard theme, this cube emphasizes zone interplay and the triangulation of artifact, spell, and land themes which is bound together by the graveyard.
- I'm trying to get the list down to 360 again, so there obviously is only so much room for new cards.
- I wasn't factoring in the new commander spoilers in that post. I'm almost certainly including. Ruin Grinder, Angel of the Ruins and Cursed Mirror. I'm looking hard at Laelia, the Blade Reforged, but Red 3's are just so stacked these days. I also Looking at Osgir, which could take Nahiri's slot.
======
Hofri Ghostforge-- I see you don't run Luminous Broodmoth or Nightmare Shepherd, not sure exactly why but if it's a power level thing, this costing 5 in two colors is interesting to me
I cut Nightmare Shepherd for Mindwrack Demon, but I'm pretty sure this was a mistake. Regarding Broodmoth: I don't like the keyword counters, and only run Titanoth Rex out of design necessity. I also think Broodmoth is too generically strong for my tastes.
Flamethrower Sonata,Plarrg, Dean of Chaos,Lukka, Wayward Bonder Extus, Oriq Overlord-- MDFCs are a pain, so I don't know about these, but each of these as one-sided cards are fantastic imo
Mentioned above
Reconstruct History-- Really exciting to me for obvious reasons
Obviously super powerful, but I'm not sure I prefer the generic value over cards like Showdown of the Skalds and Nahiri, the Harbinger. It's more exciting than Lightning Helix, but I don't want to run (3) 4cmc cards in one guild slot.
Quintorius, Field Historian-- I've found Tormod, the Desecrator to be bordering on too powerful, but a ton of fun to play with. I'm hopeful that means this is perfect, the effect is a lot of fun
I don't support tribal, and this isn't an essential card design-wise. It does self-fuel which is nice similar to Cryptbreaker, but it doesn't fit my current themes for Boros, and 5cmc is a no-go for me.
I really like Tormod which may crack the list, but hate the partner trinket text.
Oriq Warlock-- Maybe too slow? But a really awesome value/combo creature if it lives a turn
Very cool, pretty slow....I don't want this effect on a stick.
Draconic Intervention-- My new favorite Red Wrath, fixes the problems of anger of the gods for me
This is a possibility. I dislike the non-dragon clause, because I don't run any dragons outside of Eternal Dragon which is going to get cut for Angel of the Ruins. I run Realm-Cloaked Giant, because it fulfills a need, but I really don't like the non-giant clause, and will replace it as soon as an alternative presents itself.
Curate-- Bread and butter enabler/cantrip
I missed this on the spoiler. I like it. It might squeeze into the list over Mental Note
Osgir, the Recostructor-- It's Boros Emry*! plus a sac outlet! That also doubles what it gets back
Mentioned above
Laeila, the Blade Reforged-- Just a strong aggro creature that also gets beefed up by interacting with the gy. Could see this being too strong
Mentioned above
Wake the Past-- Not a slam dunk as it stands, but powerful/cool enough to make me think about leaning into supporting it
I don't feel like my artifact support is deep enough to make the 7cmc worthwhile.
Ruin Grinder-- Lava Serpent Variant that works with Goblin Welder and Potentially discard payoffs as well
Mentioned above
And some maybes:
Magma Opus-- I so want spell reanimator to be a thing now
I ran Mizzix's Mastery for the longest time, and it is so much fun. If I ran it and Torrential Gearhulk, I'd be giving this a longer look. I like the design space they are exploring with this.
Venerable Warsinger. Deadly Brew-- Both good, probably neither going to make it into a gold slot?
I missed Warsinger on the spoiler, and I might like it enough to squeeze it in. I like that it asserts the power matters subtheme that I have, and it feels less generically good than Alesha, Who Smiles at Death (which I cut) while fulfilling a similar role.
Agreed on Brew. Cool card, but doesn't crack the a 3 card guild section
Mavinda, Students' AdvocateStonebinder's Familiar-- not sure if these work in my current environment, but I find them intriguing
Mavinda is super interesting. I supported Feather briefly, but cut it as I didn't have adequate design space to support it.
Stonebinder's Familiar is interesting....like Flourishing Fox it feels slightly awkward. One I'll keep an eye on and think about
---Again, different design goals and all that, but I'm still surprised this set felt like a bit of a miss for you.
Awesome! Thanks for the reply!
I always love hearing about different approaches to arrive at ultimately somewhat similar lists of cards, and this summary of your current goals for the environment helps me look at your list with new eyes.
(Gonna be honest, I thought wake the past cost 5, not 7, and I now both
a. Feel Embarrassed
b. Think I'll take another look at Scrap Mastery
Anyway, again, thanks for the in-depth response!
I always love hearing about different approaches to arrive at ultimately somewhat similar lists of cards, and this summary of your current goals for the environment helps me look at your list with new eyes.
(Gonna be honest, I thought wake the past cost 5, not 7, and I now both
a. Feel Embarrassed
b. Think I'll take another look at Scrap Mastery
Anyway, again, thanks for the in-depth response!
Your reply came at a good time, because I was feeling a little lost on some design decisions. Typing out my design goals helped me refocus. For instance, I've been in an existential crisis for the last 36 hours over whether or not to continue supporting Marionette Master.
I'm still not sure on Master (cutting it would make me second guess Weaponcraft Enthusiast.....and Vesperlark, and Pentavus, and maybe the welders and and and)
I'm at a bit of a crossroads. My original Graveyard Combo Cube was heavy on the combo, but was a little too esoteric and really privileged a thorough knowledge of the history of the game....I hated that about it. It was my confounding little puzzle box. The draft experience was an exhausting process. Now I've veered more towards an environment of intricately woven synergies and an exploratory drafting process. The combo component (while still present) has been dialed down, and things are feeling a little more midrange....I'm craving a bit more of that top-end explosiveness that combo provides. I need more cards like Rielle, the Everwise that are explosive and on theme
I'm still not sure on Master (cutting it would make me second guess Weaponcraft Enthusiast.....and Vesperlark, and Pentavus, and maybe the welders and and and)
I'm at a bit of a crossroads. My original Graveyard Combo Cube was heavy on the combo, but was a little too esoteric and really privileged a thorough knowledge of the history of the game....I hated that about it. It was my confounding little puzzle box. The draft experience was an exhausting process. Now I've veered more towards an environment of intricately woven synergies and an exploratory drafting process. The combo component (while still present) has been dialed down, and things are feeling a little more midrange....I'm craving a bit more of that top-end explosiveness that combo provides. I need more cards like Rielle, the Everwise that are explosive and on theme
How do you feel Remorseful Cleric and Angel of Finality play? I'm always scared to put in a yard wrath.
I'll probably be back later, as I'm trying to see how deep I can make The Black Cube. Shame to hear the combo aspect has fallen off. Would you say that you're seeking a somewhat "fair" combo setup? I kind of am, too, but it's difficult because the popular combos tend to be brutally fast because they were born in Constructed. I'm potentially interested in something like Staff of Domination+Magus of the Coffers. Something around that tier of power. Something scary and looming, but not backbreaking. Maybe we can brew some stuff up together if you're in the market for some later turn combos.
I'm also in crisis on Master lmao.
I'll probably be back later, as I'm trying to see how deep I can make The Black Cube. Shame to hear the combo aspect has fallen off. Would you say that you're seeking a somewhat "fair" combo setup? I kind of am, too, but it's difficult because the popular combos tend to be brutally fast because they were born in Constructed. I'm potentially interested in something like Staff of Domination+Magus of the Coffers. Something around that tier of power. Something scary and looming, but not backbreaking. Maybe we can brew some stuff up together if you're in the market for some later turn combos.
I'm also in crisis on Master lmao.
I think cleric is going to go for being so brutally efficient at its job and so easy to recur. I don’t mind the Angel though
I’m definitely interested in brainstorming combos, we need to recruit dbs as the third musketeer
I guess I’m maybe more interested in explosive sequences like:
Wild Mongrel + Magus of the Wheel + Berserk
Heart-Piercer Manticore + Scuttling Doom Engine
Zombie Infestation + The Gitrog Monster/Bone Miser
Greater Gargadon + Turntimber Sower
Cataclysm + World Shaper
Things that can completely alter the state of a game, but aren’t necessarily infinite (at least not easily infinite)
No clue what to do about master...but I think it needs to go
EDIT: I made a temporary copy of my list to see if I can get master to make sense again in my cube: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/606b2c27becdd6105f4b3161
That stuff all looks good to me, too. I like the element of fear that some really juicy combos add. Heart-Piercer+Doom Engine is particularly cute in that list.
Wish Gargadon had reminder text for suspend
Master kind of fits the combo potential idea, doesn't it? I keep going back and forth on whether I want to fully support an artifact deck. You have a lot more artifacts than I currently do.
I think there's something to be done with
where you can easily return Blood Artist plus sac outlet plus sac targets or something like that. Shifts the goal of the draft portion, which I like. Agadeem's Awakening works, too, but I'm only using MDFCs with the tapped backside so my drafters can know what they all do without physical manipulation.
Similarly, have you ever tried Second Sunrise? Seems like it has potential but is maybe difficult to pull off.
Wish Gargadon had reminder text for suspend
Master kind of fits the combo potential idea, doesn't it? I keep going back and forth on whether I want to fully support an artifact deck. You have a lot more artifacts than I currently do.
I think there's something to be done with
where you can easily return Blood Artist plus sac outlet plus sac targets or something like that. Shifts the goal of the draft portion, which I like. Agadeem's Awakening works, too, but I'm only using MDFCs with the tapped backside so my drafters can know what they all do without physical manipulation.
Similarly, have you ever tried Second Sunrise? Seems like it has potential but is maybe difficult to pull off.
Master kind of fits the combo potential idea, doesn't it? I keep going back and forth on whether I want to fully support an artifact deck. You have a lot more artifacts than I currently do.
I think there's something to be done with
where you can easily return Blood Artist plus sac outlet plus sac targets or something like that. Shifts the goal of the draft portion, which I like. Agadeem's Awakening works, too, but I'm only using MDFCs with the tapped backside so my drafters can know what they all do without physical manipulation.
Similarly, have you ever tried Second Sunrise? Seems like it has potential but is maybe difficult to pull off.
Yeah master is on brand for flavorful combo...I think bringing back Bygone Bishop is important to firm up Master's role in Orzhov:
Vesperlark is gas with Master and Weaponcraft Enthusiast.
The main issues I'm having with Master is:
1) establishing its utility outside of orzhov and rakdos.
2) it feels like orzhov lacks clarity with there being so many strategies for putting bodies in play: Monastery Mentor, Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Battle Screech, Elspeth Sun's Nemesis.
3) keeping the format slow enough
4) a lot of the cards that make master good, feel slightly out of place at this power level: Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Hangarback Walker, Tireless Tracker, Phyrexian Metamorph, etc
I've tested Return to the Ranks and was never impressed. I think I like Rally the best of those, but what I really wish is that there was a mass resurrection spell that went by power rather than cmc. Like a dusk // dawn that returns to the battlefield. It'd be a great compliment to living death.
I've tried Second Sunrise but it needs a very different environment than where my cube is at now...one with a much leaner mana curve, more cheatiness....more trinkets. It's fine as a value play in a lower powered context, but you see sunrise in a pack and you expect to be able to really exploit it in some way and that type of support takes a lot of real estate
I'm perusing your list for ideas. How are:
?
Some cards I was genuinely curious about. Others I found out of place somehow, but maybe I'm missing something.
Also, some of the prices on these higher powered cards is just ridiculous lol. I've been considering higher power, but that's a big drawback to me. I don't really want to proxy. Just doesn't sit right.
?
Some cards I was genuinely curious about. Others I found out of place somehow, but maybe I'm missing something.
Also, some of the prices on these higher powered cards is just ridiculous lol. I've been considering higher power, but that's a big drawback to me. I don't really want to proxy. Just doesn't sit right.
extractor demon
- Super narrow, but it can turn an ordinary sacrifice deck into a combo deck by itself. I like it in combination with things like mesmeric orb, evolutionary leap, and altar of dementia. It also has some fringe utility as a pseudo Lava Axe in an aggro deck that can reliably get it into the graveyard (which is pretty much every aggro deck in my cube).
zombie infestation
- Even more narrow than the demon. This is a pet card to combo with Loam, Squee, Gitrog, Bone Miser, wheel effects, etc. I prefer it over something more incremental like Call the Bloodline.
squee, goblin nabob
- It has a lot of utility and is essentially a colorless card in this cube. It's almost like a static more or less. It can help some decks be a little more competitive, by pushing the many loot effects into pure card advantage. This is useful when you are lacking in mechanical payoffs like madness or flashback which is important because I don't run every single borderline playable madness card.
dismissive pyromancer
- Great glue card. It serves a variety of roles in my cube being a looter, removal that is easy to recur, and can swing for two. It does everything I want
mother bear
- Fine, but unremarkable, and not staying. It's already designed out of the list. I just haven't settled on a full revision to update the main list on Cube Cobra
genesis
- Super slow. I don't love this, and it probably won't be in the list when I make my next update
multani, yavimaya's avatar
- Love love love it. Worth testing if you are looking for a lands matter payoff that is less insane than Titania, Protector of Argoth. Titania was just too oppressive at my power level.
ashiok, dream render
- Big fan of this card. It's a nice sign post that strategies that mill your opponent's library exist. I love the hybrid flexibility....it slots nicely in the Azorius Blink Mill deck. I don't love a lot of dimir options, and for now CC hybrids live in my guild section.
molten-tail masticore
- Unsure. Need to get some reps irl, but my suspicion is that it's pretty non-essential. It feels awkward, but I don't really know why.
bag of holding
- This can be surprisingly powerful. It has generic utility, but when you pair it with a repeatable/mass discard outlet you can generate some really unique sequences. It can be a little tricky, because a lot of archetypes will want those discarded cards to go to the graveyard. It's great in cycling strategies, because you get to return all of those Hieroglyphic Illuminations and Censors back to your hand. Fun pairing with wheels and discard effects like Zombie Infestation and Ayuli's Influence. Much like Squee, it can convert the many discard effects into generic value.
mimic vat
- Good but not really necessary. It bounces in and out of my list a lot. Eulogist is being cut again, and I really just wanted to get cute. It's fun in Sneak Attack decks, and I like it in control. Good colorless graveyard hate. However, it's a very easy card for players to jam into any deck regardless of context which I'm always a little leery of.
mindslaver
- Intricate synergies are well and good, but I don't want every game to be endless wheel spinning. I like having a handful of cards that don't beat around the bush. Mindslaver adds a lot of tension to a game. I like the sense of inevitability, and appreciate the unique game dynamic. Some might think it results in un-fun games, but I think it's good to sober things up, and keep things in check. Mesmeric Orb has a similar function.
- Super narrow, but it can turn an ordinary sacrifice deck into a combo deck by itself. I like it in combination with things like mesmeric orb, evolutionary leap, and altar of dementia. It also has some fringe utility as a pseudo Lava Axe in an aggro deck that can reliably get it into the graveyard (which is pretty much every aggro deck in my cube).
zombie infestation
- Even more narrow than the demon. This is a pet card to combo with Loam, Squee, Gitrog, Bone Miser, wheel effects, etc. I prefer it over something more incremental like Call the Bloodline.
squee, goblin nabob
- It has a lot of utility and is essentially a colorless card in this cube. It's almost like a static more or less. It can help some decks be a little more competitive, by pushing the many loot effects into pure card advantage. This is useful when you are lacking in mechanical payoffs like madness or flashback which is important because I don't run every single borderline playable madness card.
dismissive pyromancer
- Great glue card. It serves a variety of roles in my cube being a looter, removal that is easy to recur, and can swing for two. It does everything I want
mother bear
- Fine, but unremarkable, and not staying. It's already designed out of the list. I just haven't settled on a full revision to update the main list on Cube Cobra
genesis
- Super slow. I don't love this, and it probably won't be in the list when I make my next update
multani, yavimaya's avatar
- Love love love it. Worth testing if you are looking for a lands matter payoff that is less insane than Titania, Protector of Argoth. Titania was just too oppressive at my power level.
ashiok, dream render
- Big fan of this card. It's a nice sign post that strategies that mill your opponent's library exist. I love the hybrid flexibility....it slots nicely in the Azorius Blink Mill deck. I don't love a lot of dimir options, and for now CC hybrids live in my guild section.
molten-tail masticore
- Unsure. Need to get some reps irl, but my suspicion is that it's pretty non-essential. It feels awkward, but I don't really know why.
bag of holding
- This can be surprisingly powerful. It has generic utility, but when you pair it with a repeatable/mass discard outlet you can generate some really unique sequences. It can be a little tricky, because a lot of archetypes will want those discarded cards to go to the graveyard. It's great in cycling strategies, because you get to return all of those Hieroglyphic Illuminations and Censors back to your hand. Fun pairing with wheels and discard effects like Zombie Infestation and Ayuli's Influence. Much like Squee, it can convert the many discard effects into generic value.
mimic vat
- Good but not really necessary. It bounces in and out of my list a lot. Eulogist is being cut again, and I really just wanted to get cute. It's fun in Sneak Attack decks, and I like it in control. Good colorless graveyard hate. However, it's a very easy card for players to jam into any deck regardless of context which I'm always a little leery of.
mindslaver
- Intricate synergies are well and good, but I don't want every game to be endless wheel spinning. I like having a handful of cards that don't beat around the bush. Mindslaver adds a lot of tension to a game. I like the sense of inevitability, and appreciate the unique game dynamic. Some might think it results in un-fun games, but I think it's good to sober things up, and keep things in check. Mesmeric Orb has a similar function.
Re: Explosive Cards, what do you think of:
Also, Not as explosive, but I was wondering about:
--- This has been what I wanted Genesis to be
-- Too tribal for you?
Re: Marionette Master-- What makes you want/Not want to continue supporting it? is it about a sacrifice-y artifact deck in general? or love for that specific card
Also, Not as explosive, but I was wondering about:
--- This has been what I wanted Genesis to be-- Too tribal for you?Re: Marionette Master-- What makes you want/Not want to continue supporting it? is it about a sacrifice-y artifact deck in general? or love for that specific card
Pulsemage Advocate
- Maybe fine? Never tested it in cube. I don't need many white resurrection spells at 360
Octavia, Living Thesis
- Looks bad to me tbh
Intuition
- Love the card. An all time fav. Just don't need it and Gifts at 360. Would start considering it at 450+ or if Gifts becomes too oppressive
Dreams of the Dead
- I don't really want reanimator to exist in high density in all colors. Cumulative Upkeep is messy and would be the only instance of the keyword in the cube. Tombstone Stairwell is super rad tho...I used to run it
Surly Badgersaur
- Tried it. I didn't really find it's abilities in relation to cmc to be worth running. I really dislike Bone Miser's cmc, but it fills a role that I needed in dimir and orzhov in particular.
Wildfire Devils
- I've been looking at this one a lot lately. Finding a cut is hard. It's very tempting. I like Dire Fleet Daredevil....the adventure cards...anything with a body that can add to the volume of spell casting to trigger prowess
Bedlam reveler
- Used to run this, and I like it a lot for some decks. Surviving your own Wildfire or Languish was nice. It's been a little awkward in practice, and that's the main reason I cut it. I think it left when Dreadhorde Arcanist (a fav of mine) was cut, and the spell heavy tempo deck was neutered some. I do still like it.
Immolating Gyre
- If I decided to stop supporting land destruction. This would be one of the first things I'd consider running in the Wildfire slot. It's still tempting.
Vivien's Arkbow
- Has bounced in and out of my list a couple of times. I love that it's an artifact for Emry or the Welders....just a bit mana intensive for me, and didn't really fit in with my green decks want to do...the green "madness" decks run on much leaner mana. I prefer Evolutionary Leap which slots into my establish archetypes more.
The Binding of the Titans
- I can see a case for this over Vessel of Nascency, but I think I prefer the immediacy of the Vessel, and I don't need the redundancy at 360.
Bazaar of Baghdad
- Incredible card. I sold mine years ago, and will never buy another magic card over $50 again. If it gets a cheap reprint I'll consider it, but it's probably way too good.
Hunting Grounds
- I used to run Hunting Grounds in standard back in the day so I have a soft spot for this card. Even when running a playset, it was always a supremely awkward card. Add to that awkwardness you only get 1 copy, and Selesnya is the weakest pairing in a graveyard cube for threshold, and I just like other gold options more.
Also, Not as explosive, but I was wondering about:
Ethereal Forager
- I like this a lot. It could make the list one day.
Gravebreaker Lamia
- Big fan of this one too. If I cut Miser, it'll be for Lamia. I just don't want a fourth 5cmc creature at 360: Syr Konrad, Archfiend, Miser
Oversold Cemetery--- This has been what I wanted Genesis to be
- I like Cemetery . The problem I have with these effects is that they're all a bit too slow. It's easy enough to have a midrange recursive deck without cards like this just by running E-Witness, Grapple with the Pasts, etc...the challenge for me is blowing the lid off of the deck in some way. So I tend to not value cards like the Ishkanahs, Genesis, Splinterfrights, Oversolds very highly.
Basking Rootwalla
- It's currently bouncing in and out of my revision list. It's just so measly and mana-intensive. I think I prefer Gnarlwood Dryad
Centaur Vinecrasher
- Never was impressed by this card or the worse Terravore. Multani is so good because it counts in play and graveyard. This card is a Masked Admirers-like trap imo. Way too many intensive and situational to boot.
Werebear
- I like this card, but I don't like it more than Tarmogoyf, Fauna Shaman, Wild Mongrel, Noose Constrictor, and Merfolk Branchwalker (this one is debatable). Those 5 cards serve the needs of any deck that would want Werebear, but do so with more cross-archetype appeal
Vega, the Watcher
- I glanced at this, but my Azorius decks don't have the density of support to get frequent triggers from this. I'm not satisfied with my Azorius guild slots, but I'm not sure I really like this as my cube is currently constructed. I think this would have a stronger case if I ran retrace in the guild or more of the flashback cards instead of the cycling cards.
Renegade Rallier
- Really like this one, but a big issue in Selesnya is how congested the 3cmc slot is. I really enjoy the revolt mechanic. I just prefer KotR and Knight of Autumn a bit more. There's definitely a case for it over Knight of Autumn tho. Not that it's specifically relevant to this card, but I do think there is a trap in running too much recursion, which is fostering a sameness in play dynamics or monotonous loop patterns between archetypes and color pairings. One of the reason I don't run every graveyard friendly card I can is because I want to maintain a diversity in axes of play.
Trading Post
- It's in my revision draft for now. It's bounced in and out of my list over the years. There's a lot of congestion at 4cmc in the decks that like trading post....and that's the primary reason for its omission at times.
Heirloom Blade-- Too tribal for you?
- Too tribal for me
Re: Marionette Master-- What makes you want/Not want to continue supporting it? is it about a sacrifice-y artifact deck in general? or love for that specific card[/quote]
It's more about what happens when I cut it. Cut master and:
- Weaponcraft Enthusiast goes
- Orzhov artifact sacrifice is gone
- Welders in Rakdos become limited to Welder Reanimator primarily.
- Vesperlark utility is impacted....which is such an interesting card, but such a challenge to support in a meaningful way.
It's just a domino effect for me....it becomes more of a question of whether or not to support the artifact subtheme.
- Maybe fine? Never tested it in cube. I don't need many white resurrection spells at 360
Octavia, Living Thesis
- Looks bad to me tbh
Intuition
- Love the card. An all time fav. Just don't need it and Gifts at 360. Would start considering it at 450+ or if Gifts becomes too oppressive
Dreams of the Dead
- I don't really want reanimator to exist in high density in all colors. Cumulative Upkeep is messy and would be the only instance of the keyword in the cube. Tombstone Stairwell is super rad tho...I used to run it
Surly Badgersaur
- Tried it. I didn't really find it's abilities in relation to cmc to be worth running. I really dislike Bone Miser's cmc, but it fills a role that I needed in dimir and orzhov in particular.
Wildfire Devils
- I've been looking at this one a lot lately. Finding a cut is hard. It's very tempting. I like Dire Fleet Daredevil....the adventure cards...anything with a body that can add to the volume of spell casting to trigger prowess
Bedlam reveler
- Used to run this, and I like it a lot for some decks. Surviving your own Wildfire or Languish was nice. It's been a little awkward in practice, and that's the main reason I cut it. I think it left when Dreadhorde Arcanist (a fav of mine) was cut, and the spell heavy tempo deck was neutered some. I do still like it.
Immolating Gyre
- If I decided to stop supporting land destruction. This would be one of the first things I'd consider running in the Wildfire slot. It's still tempting.
Vivien's Arkbow
- Has bounced in and out of my list a couple of times. I love that it's an artifact for Emry or the Welders....just a bit mana intensive for me, and didn't really fit in with my green decks want to do...the green "madness" decks run on much leaner mana. I prefer Evolutionary Leap which slots into my establish archetypes more.
The Binding of the Titans
- I can see a case for this over Vessel of Nascency, but I think I prefer the immediacy of the Vessel, and I don't need the redundancy at 360.
Bazaar of Baghdad
- Incredible card. I sold mine years ago, and will never buy another magic card over $50 again. If it gets a cheap reprint I'll consider it, but it's probably way too good.
Hunting Grounds
- I used to run Hunting Grounds in standard back in the day so I have a soft spot for this card. Even when running a playset, it was always a supremely awkward card. Add to that awkwardness you only get 1 copy, and Selesnya is the weakest pairing in a graveyard cube for threshold, and I just like other gold options more.
Also, Not as explosive, but I was wondering about:
Ethereal Forager
- I like this a lot. It could make the list one day.
Gravebreaker Lamia
- Big fan of this one too. If I cut Miser, it'll be for Lamia. I just don't want a fourth 5cmc creature at 360: Syr Konrad, Archfiend, Miser
Oversold Cemetery--- This has been what I wanted Genesis to be
- I like Cemetery . The problem I have with these effects is that they're all a bit too slow. It's easy enough to have a midrange recursive deck without cards like this just by running E-Witness, Grapple with the Pasts, etc...the challenge for me is blowing the lid off of the deck in some way. So I tend to not value cards like the Ishkanahs, Genesis, Splinterfrights, Oversolds very highly.
Basking Rootwalla
- It's currently bouncing in and out of my revision list. It's just so measly and mana-intensive. I think I prefer Gnarlwood Dryad
Centaur Vinecrasher
- Never was impressed by this card or the worse Terravore. Multani is so good because it counts in play and graveyard. This card is a Masked Admirers-like trap imo. Way too many intensive and situational to boot.
Werebear
- I like this card, but I don't like it more than Tarmogoyf, Fauna Shaman, Wild Mongrel, Noose Constrictor, and Merfolk Branchwalker (this one is debatable). Those 5 cards serve the needs of any deck that would want Werebear, but do so with more cross-archetype appeal
Vega, the Watcher
- I glanced at this, but my Azorius decks don't have the density of support to get frequent triggers from this. I'm not satisfied with my Azorius guild slots, but I'm not sure I really like this as my cube is currently constructed. I think this would have a stronger case if I ran retrace in the guild or more of the flashback cards instead of the cycling cards.
Renegade Rallier
- Really like this one, but a big issue in Selesnya is how congested the 3cmc slot is. I really enjoy the revolt mechanic. I just prefer KotR and Knight of Autumn a bit more. There's definitely a case for it over Knight of Autumn tho. Not that it's specifically relevant to this card, but I do think there is a trap in running too much recursion, which is fostering a sameness in play dynamics or monotonous loop patterns between archetypes and color pairings. One of the reason I don't run every graveyard friendly card I can is because I want to maintain a diversity in axes of play.
Trading Post
- It's in my revision draft for now. It's bounced in and out of my list over the years. There's a lot of congestion at 4cmc in the decks that like trading post....and that's the primary reason for its omission at times.
Heirloom Blade-- Too tribal for you?
- Too tribal for me
Re: Marionette Master-- What makes you want/Not want to continue supporting it? is it about a sacrifice-y artifact deck in general? or love for that specific card[/quote]
It's more about what happens when I cut it. Cut master and:
- Weaponcraft Enthusiast goes
- Orzhov artifact sacrifice is gone
- Welders in Rakdos become limited to Welder Reanimator primarily.
- Vesperlark utility is impacted....which is such an interesting card, but such a challenge to support in a meaningful way.
It's just a domino effect for me....it becomes more of a question of whether or not to support the artifact subtheme.
Makes sense re: Marionette. If you are looking to support artifacts in black, I've been looking at Armix, Filigree Thrasher-- though I know you don't like extra commander text on cards. There's also the new Black Trading post guy, which even sacrifices them, so maybe there's something there
If you feel that Marionette master is an important pivot piece, why are you considering cutting it/the black artifact support? Lack of support/power level? or is there another reason?
Also re:my endless lists of cards, thanks for your response-- I suppose you're against proxying things like bazaar, then?
A couple thoughts:
Renegade Rallier-- While land based strategies are never as supported as I like, Rallier does a really good job of bridging Land decks and more aggressive decks, and I generally find that rallier is an extremely flexible card that has a lot of different play patterns (Though of course, if you did want to go a combo route, there's always Saffi Eriksdotter
One thing I'm hearing generally is that you avoid redundancy a lot more than me-- Give me that Mental Note all day! I think I also like one-off funky buildarounds more than you
I do love Dreams of the Dead, though, probably in part due to how inelegant it is-- it's like my awkward puppy, that sometimes becomes Sneak attack
If you feel that Marionette master is an important pivot piece, why are you considering cutting it/the black artifact support? Lack of support/power level? or is there another reason?
Also re:my endless lists of cards, thanks for your response-- I suppose you're against proxying things like bazaar, then?
A couple thoughts:
Renegade Rallier-- While land based strategies are never as supported as I like, Rallier does a really good job of bridging Land decks and more aggressive decks, and I generally find that rallier is an extremely flexible card that has a lot of different play patterns (Though of course, if you did want to go a combo route, there's always Saffi Eriksdotter
One thing I'm hearing generally is that you avoid redundancy a lot more than me-- Give me that Mental Note all day! I think I also like one-off funky buildarounds more than you
I do love Dreams of the Dead, though, probably in part due to how inelegant it is
-- it's like my awkward puppy, that sometimes becomes Sneak attackI'm questioning not only how important it is, but how important the artifact subtheme is in general, and in turn how much of a combo component I need to maintain in the cube to conserve the dynamic I'm going after. A lot of combo in the cube is wrapped up in artifact synergies. An older design had the master more intricately woven into the cube architecture, but some changes have been made that have endangered it's utility.
A lot boils down to what I'm trying to do with White Tokens.
It's just a lot of ways for white to generate tokens....some overlap and some don't. It's figuring out which are most important to the overall architecture. Master would benefit more from artifact tokens via Angel of Invention, Sram's Expertise, Blade Splicer, etc...but that ratchets up the power level some. I'm considering trinkets instead of artifact tokens in orzhov for marionette master. I'm not in love with Auriok Salvagers, but it might help me alleviate the tension of the competing token strategies. My old solution was an archetype that blended "rebels"-style tutoring with the modularity of affinity:
Which paired really well with Marionette Master in Orzhov. I cut Ranger and Recruiter because the tutoring led to a lot of play redundancy. Hangarback was cut, because it felt too generically good and more at home at a higher power band imo. I also cut Pia and Kiran Nalaar around this time which further impacted Master...as well as Smuggler's Copter
I don't mind proxying cards that I intend to acquire eventually, but that's not the case with bazaar. The cube is 100% proxy free right now. It's just a personal preference. But I don't mind playing cubes with proxies.
Absolutely. I like Rallier for it's application in the Land Tilling deck especially which is one of the only concrete archetypes I have in Selesnya.
A selesnya pairing I particularly loved when I ran Rallier was with Qasali Pridemage which is not super sexy, but the combination of exalted and sacrifice utility played really nicely for me. I like saffi though....I just never feel like I have a high enough density of sacrifice effects in the guild for it to work
Redundancy is more necessary at your cube size. I'd be considering a lot more of these cards at 450. Getting down to 360 was important, because some of the cycling archetypes feel barely viable, and it only gets worse when you increase the cube size and start to resort to more middling support cards. I'm not convinced Astral Drift is good enough for my cube, but Astral Slide is even worse. Cutting it would cause a Marionette-like ripple in card selections.
I love buildarounds. I think I run a pretty good density at 360, but most of them have a very particular role to play in the general design.
I do love Dreams of the Dead, though, probably in part due to how inelegant it is
Gotta have your pet cards!
I had to cut my pet card
I’m sorry for your loss, Train
Look at it this way: It’s like the end of a toxic relationship, because that card is awful
I’m sorry for your loss, Train
Look at it this way: It’s like the end of a toxic relationship, because that card is awful
savage but i agree also am i the only one that now has a obssestion with making boros not just tokens/fun police/enchantment equipment because of lorehome