Inscho's Graveyard Combo Cube

[inscho]

Tweaking this list, and I think I'm close to importing the changes.

https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/2tnd4

Some notable inclusions/questionables that I'd love input on:

Higher powered buildarounds:


Stronger removal suite:


More graveyard hate:


With the increased speed and stronger removal pool these are beginning to feel like necessary additions to keep the graveyard decks somewhat honest. Including these definitely makes me a little anxious.

Elder giants are back:


Resource denial upgrade:


Pox may be a little cute, but I want to test it. Winter Orb is the opposite of cute, but there aren't many resource denial options that scale up in power level without going with Armageddon, Strip Mine, and Stasis. I like to have some mean decks in my format. I grew up on land destruction, and I've always considered it an important part of my environment conceptually. Something needs to take the place of Braids, Cabal Minion, Rankle, Master of Pranks, and Smokestack.



The lands deck needs something worth assembling. Depths combo isn't my ideal solution....is it an interesting incentive or just cheesy?

Double-sided cards:


Faster mana:


Spells volume package:


(Saheeli is probably bad. I've never been particularly impressed by it.)


There's a lot of other changes from the list in the OP. Interested to hear your thoughts, and as always I appreciate any test drafts.

 

[Dom Harvey]

The incentive problem is my biggest issue with Lands, which I really want to support as an archetype. In Vintage Cube you have to recur Strip Mine over and over or punk people out with Depths + Stage; otherwise the best you can do is Field of the Dead, which is repetitive in its own way and completely warps other players' access to fixing lands during the draft. Beyond that the lands themselves don't do anything, which makes it harder to embrace cards like Crop Rotation. It's not the end of the world but I hope it gets fixed soon.

 

[inscho]

The incentive problem is my biggest issue with Lands, which I really want to support as an archetype. In Vintage Cube you have to recur Strip Mine over and over or punk people out with Depths + Stage; otherwise the best you can do is Field of the Dead, which is repetitive in its own way and completely warps other players' access to fixing lands during the draft. Beyond that the lands themselves don't do anything, which makes it harder to embrace cards like Crop Rotation. It's not the end of the world but I hope it gets fixed soon.

100%.

I really don't want to encourage people to draft fixing more than they already do so Field of the Dead is out for me.

Bazaar of Baghdad and Urza's Saga definitely help out. Other options I've considered:



But none are quite what I'm looking for. Although, Wolf Run could be fun with the powers matters subtheme. It's easy enough to splash red if you're in Simic or Selesyna with all of the land tutoring.

EDIT:

There's also:



If I want to add more cards that I don't intend on buying again, and will need to proxy.

 

[Nanonox]

Individual cards:
SFM: you won’t be cheating much on mana since your equipments are cheap. So basically you are getting a 2 for 1 for 2 mana. It’s definitely above rate compared to the rest of the cube, but I do like that it’s possible to blank the equipment you tutored for with removal. It’s also a great card for aggressive and slower decks alike and pushes artifacts in White.
I think it’s ok!

Murktide: You are moving towards more spell velocity with this iteration of the cube, so it makes sense to gravitate towards Murktide. However, Red and Green are going to have a lot of trouble dealing with it and it will be a solid removal check for other colors. However, giving Blue tools to be aggressive opens up new archetypes so I still think it might be worth it.

Time Spiral: Not seeing a ton of reasons to run this. Fastbond and LED are the best way to abuse it from your list I think, but the fact that it doesn't discard, that it disrupts the GY (might be a good defensive measure maybe?) and that it costs 6 is rough.
I'm not sure what TS's role in the cube is, but I think that Memory might be better if you want a wheel effect.



Witch: Giving Black tools to participate in the spell velocity theme is smart IMO because it gives drafters a reason to splash and consider a whole new color. It might also fuel some sacrifice decks that lean towards spells

Yawgmoth and Titania: Not sure. Question for you though: does Titania's interaction with mass land destruction remove the "mean" gameplay that you want (since it wins so quickly)?

Survival: I drafted this: https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/63193724f07a680f6bdcd683
And if Fauna Shaman were a Survival instead, the deck would be pretty bonkers. Does that work with your goals?

Earthcraft: Crazy mana that you have to work for isn't a problem in my book, quite the opposite in fact. My concern is that it might be a little too isolated in what it's doing.

Bazaar: You have to work to make the downside worth it, which is a great place for a card to be. I love it for Green decks especially:
- It's a land, so it can be tutored or recurred
- Green is light on discard outlets
- With Containment Construct, Currency Converter and Bazaar, you have a colorless discard package

At a glance, I am thinking there could be something to be said about having more mana sinks, specifically X spells to go along with your increased mana capabilities (Earthcraft, Tameshi + Lotus Bloom, Urza, Splendid Reclamation and so on).

That's all I have for now!

 

[inscho]

As always, I appreciate your feedback!

Time Spiral: Not seeing a ton of reasons to run this. Fastbond and LED are the best way to abuse it from your list I think, but the fact that it doesn't discard, that it disrupts the GY (might be a good defensive measure maybe?) and that it costs 6 is rough. I'm not sure what TS's role in the cube is, but I think that Memory might be better if you want a wheel effect.

A blue Wheel of Fortune would definitely be great if it existed. I've thought about running Timetwister instead. Windfall isn't as good in my environment with so many discard-heavy strategies. Time Spiral is pretty great though....I don't worry about having some graveyard shuffling effects as they offer a different style of play to other effects. Nexus of Fate has been an invaluable piece of insurance for the self-mill decks, and shuffle effects similarly provide insurance. Blue's delve spells with Time Spiral is great for restacking your deck and hand with plenty of action. It's also graveyard hate. Twister would be nice as it could be run in aggressive strategies such as Simic Madness/Dredge alongside Wild Mongrel and Noose Constrictor like Echo of Eons has.

Yawgmoth and Titania: Not sure. Question for you though: does Titania's interaction with mass land destruction remove the "mean" gameplay that you want (since it wins so quickly)?

It does and doesn't. It's only one card...and mean doesn't have to be slow. It's interesting in that it works on both sides of the board with land destruction....in aiding it or protecting against it.

With higher quality removal/graveyard hate, and a faster environment Titania feels much more reasonable. Titania is one of the few lands incentives that proactively wins you games. So much of the land deck is wheel-spinning. Something like Greater Gargadon + Titania is kind of cheesy, but it manifests in the type of deck I'd like to see more of, so the incentive to support it is there for me.

Regarding Yawgmoth: sacrifice strategies need a card or two to create some gravity during draft. Midnight Reaper has less gravity in this environment. Skullclamp would just get slotted into every deck with creatures..Yawgmoth at least demands some thought and deckbuilding considerations. I'm also considering Grist, the Hunger Tide as support.

Survival: I drafted this: https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/63193724f07a680f6bdcd683
And if Fauna Shaman were a Survival instead, the deck would be pretty bonkers. Does that work with your goals?

I think so! I really like that deck, and SotF would indeed be bananas in it. The verdict is out on Survival and some others....my caution with Surival is the combination of its gravity in draft and its repeated play-patterns. Surival in a deck like that chains the same handful of creatures Madness Basking Rootwalla > Prized Amalgam > Vengevine > Hollow One, cast Hollow One for free, bring back Vine and Amalgam or it's just a way to fast track to finding Hogaak or some combination of the two. On the other hand, drafting all of those pieces is an achievement unlocker, and generally the type of combo I enjoy most. It requires a combination of careful deckbuilding and effort. It doesn't win the game outright, and can be interacted with. You likely won't forget drafting and playing with that deck.

Earthcraft: Crazy mana that you have to work for isn't a problem in my book, quite the opposite in fact. My concern is that it might be a little too isolated in what it's doing.

I used to think that there needed to be an "Earthcraft deck"....I ran it with Rishkar, Peema's Renegade and Cryptolith Rite. But at the end of the day, Earthcraft is just a busted ass card. Mana elves are redudant support in themselves. What Earthcraft does is allow for creature-chaining combos in ways that few of its analogues can (Urza, Lord High Artificer can as well in the right deck). That's where I find it most valuable for the environment...It also has a home in the resource denial decks: makes your Bloodghast a recursive mana elf for Pox, helping you stay active under a Winter Orb, etc

At a glance, I am thinking there could be something to be said about having more mana sinks, specifically X spells to go along with your increased mana capabilities (Earthcraft, Tameshi + Lotus Bloom, Urza, Splendid Reclamation and so on).

I'm open to suggestions, but I think there's a decent amount of mana sinks:



Finale of Devastation has popped in and out of drafts. That one extra mana sure feels awkward though.

=====
Currently thinking about increasing the cube size to 390, and going back to 15 card packs. Leaving some degree of variance with the higher power level would be nice. What got me thinking of this is how easily the lands drafter can count on depths combo wheeling, and if it's always in the pool there's a higher chance that the lands deck is always about assembling the combo. Regardless of cube and pack size, I don't know if I want to support the combo.
=====

Thanks again for the comments!

 

[inscho]

Ported the changes over: https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/inscho

I'm still tinkering away, but I was starting to feel a little crazy with the number of cube drafts I had going simultaneously. So figured that I may as well take the plunge. Once I've balanced the archetypes, I'm going to start working on an updated primer.

Depths combo didn't come over...I think it's too cheesy. I added Gaea's Cradle insetad as another land worth tutoring for with a lot more general utility.

I'm really enjoying:



I underestimated just how much this would pull some themes together. It's an appealing card for a wide range of strategies: the sacrifice decks want it, as do the artifact decks, the land decks, and the blink decks....just a great card. A++

 

[Erik Twice]

Do you prefer Serra Paragon to Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle?

 

[inscho]

Do you prefer Serra Paragon to Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle?

I do. Paragon doesn't let you "go off" like Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle does, but the fact that it gets back noncreature permanents and isn't restricted to casting historic spells gives it a lot more appeal to more decks. However, there's definitely an argument to be made for running both, because they fulfill very different needs despite their similarities.

For now, I'm pretty content with this small creature recursion package over Teshar:



Which plays better with the blink subtheme. Blink is also useful with Paragon. You can blink Paragon on your turn to cast two things from your graveyard, or you can blink the recurred permanent to erase the exile clause.

Paragon really helps solidfy white's role in land decks and stax decks. Getting a Wrenn and Six, Liliana of the Veil, Tangle Wire, Wasteland or Windswept Heath back is pretty huge.

Teshar's 2/2 body for 4 mana relegates it to midrange creature combo decks. Paragon's 3/4 body is a greater factor in combat, and should be more usable to more decks.

But most importantly, Paragon is an important piece for Selesnya, and the health of Selesnya has always governed the power level of my cube. It works well with a lot of what my green section does between the various landfall, exploration, and self-mill cards



and is a 4cmc creature for Birthing Pod which I'm always in short supply of

 

[inscho]

Warhammer Update

In:


Out:


and mulling over what to cut for:


Considering pulling two of:


Honored Hydra: one of the more sizable threats on curve for the madness/dredge decks. Is pretty desirable to simic, golgari, and gruul....not particularly useful for Selesnya. Hard-casting this never feels great. Hogaak is the only other graveyard casted fatty that comes immediately to mind.

Verdurous Gearhulk: Green likes large threats, and this comes with welder and blink synergy. Pretty equally desirable to all green guilds, but perhaps most of all to Selesnya.

Titan of Industry: One of the premier ramp, sneak, reanimator, oath targets. Great board stabilizer. Not particularly flavorful to the cube which is a slight knock. Just good at what it does. Shield is a one-off mechanic, no reminder text, and slightly confusing.

Hormagaunt Horde: In thinking about what to cut for Horde, I'm questioning whether it provides anything valuable to green. The sticking point for me is that it can hit play within the first three turns of the game. It's an early body to sacrifice to an Eldritch Evolution or Birthing Pod....you don't mind discarding or dredging it away, because it comes back later once you've run out of gas. Sometimes you just want a body on turn 1 for your Rancor or Equipment, and good green one drops are hard to come by. But does it do anything particularly good?

Old One Eye: Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar was super clutch for me at lower power levels, and Old One Eye covers similar ground at a higher power level. Having a large recursive threat is great for the hyper-mill decks that like to do dumb stuff with things like Splendid Reclamation or Nexus of Fate. It's a great ramp, reanimator, and sneak target...and survives wildfire like a champ.

I think cutting Titan for One Eye makes sense. Not sure which (if anything) to cut for Horde....maybe the Hydra

Other misc substitutions:

Out:


In:


I'm most questioning the Incarnation Technique cut as it is a second (mini) Living Death that was nice to have. I feel good about the other substitutions: Approach was a missed alt win-con, Deep Analysis has become outclassed, Ransack is generally better than Whisper in this environment. White twos are a competitive section....I thought I wanted reinforcements, but white has other ways of putting bodies on the battlefield that makes more sense for my archetypes, and Skyfisher does so many little things that I enjoy.

A slot in red that I can't make up my mind on is what takes the spot that was occupied by Experimental Frenzy:



Or just adding another piece of burn. Currently leaning towards bringing back Cursed Mirror which is a blast to play. I enjoy how it plays with welders and sneak attack....it ramps you into your large creatures when you don't have a cheat piece, and it copies the fatties once they're in play.

 

[Nanonox]

I like the changes and am looking at similar cards on my end. Especially like One-Eyed being a Green card that wants to be in the GY and another discard outlet, which I felt the color is missing.

For the Red value engine, have you tried

?

I’ve been liking it as another way to tie Red into lands. The downside is that you need land recursion or you will run out of lands to trigger it quickly. However, most land decks want that recursion anyways. I’d love to see a Splendid Reclamation with this on the board for crazy draw or damage!

 

[inscho]

For the Red value engine, have you tried

?

I’ve been liking it as another way to tie Red into lands. The downside is that you need land recursion or you will run out of lands to trigger it quickly. However, most land decks want that recursion anyways. I’d love to see a Splendid Reclamation with this on the board for crazy draw or damage!

I've never been able to get beyond the 3cmc to test it. At 2 mana it would have appeal in aggro decks. At 3, it just seems a bit awkward and unappealing outside of Gruul lands. But again, I've never tried it and would love to hear contrary results, because it's an intriguing card.

I think I'm more interested in Experimental Frenzy as it is great with green's exploration effects and plays favorably with the discard themes in the guild. I was looking to cut it mostly because it's a bit awkward at 4 mana, but it has a Future Sight-like impact once it hits play. Unlike VE, Frenzy can be a pure gas curve-topper in aggro as your hand is going to be depleted by the time it hits play. I might've talked myself back into it

I also think I like Tectonic Reformation more than VE....Outside of Gruul with Loam effects and Splendid Reclamation, it has some appeal in aggro decks, and decks that care about discard triggers. It was a lot of fun with Glint-Horn Buccaneer which could come back if Laelia proves to be a bit too absurd.

Red doesn't really struggle with it's contributions to Gruul lands in my cube, but I can see why you'd be looking at this card to tie red into lands a bit more as you aren't running Wildfire effects, or Radha, Heart of Keld. As it stands, I find the color pairing pretty tight between red's many looting effects that pair well with Loam, Excavator, and Splendid Reclamation, its hand refill cards which pair well with green's explorations, the Wildfire effects, and Radha/Wrenn and Six as signposts.

 

[inscho]

A couple CC draft decks that are interesting me:

Mardu Sneak Blink

I enjoy the alternate "casting" costs of many of the creatures allowing for you have lots of early turn plays. The instant speed blink: Ephemerate, Restoration Angel, and Touch the Spirit Realm adds some cheating into play redundancy with the Evoke critters. I'm currently thinking of more ways to expand upon this unique dynamic for Boros.

Rakdos Token Madness

Really enjoying the trio of The Raven Man, Sedgmoor Witch, and Young Pyromancer...they pair so well with red's looting spells.

 

[inscho]

A couple cards that I'm testing in an effort to expand artifact archetypes:


I wasn't that interested in The Reality Chip at first as most of my artifact decks were reanimation/sneak attack based or aggro based. As I push more midrange artifact strategies, the cheap defensive artifact body and Future Sight upside are more welcomed. Tezz and Chariot are both great, and I've only avoided them in the past due to power level concerns. That's less of an issue with the current power level.

A couple more CC drafts that highlight how Earthcraft opens up green artifact decks:

Gruul Artifact Aggro

Berserk combines with Nettlecyst and Cranial Plating for one-shot potential. Earthcraft and Gaea's Cradle allow you to dump mana into your scaling artifact creatures. Elvish Reclaimer searches out Urza's Saga and Cradle...Wrenn and Six gets back Saga and Wasteland.

I could easily see this pivoting towards a midrange sacrifice deck with things like:


I definitely look forward to welding Esika's Chariot over and over.

Simic Artifacts

This deck has similar ways to sink mana, but within a more midrange shell. The creature count is a little low for pod, but you really just want to get Emry or Urza into play. The sketch is promising.

 

[Nanonox]

Yessssss! More Earthcraft shenanigans

The next step in the process is to add



So that you don't actually need to play Green and Earthcraft since you can go with Urza, Lord High Artificer, Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy as enablers.

This leads you to



An artifact that grabs both Academy and Cradle, adding redundancy. It's fetchable by Urza's Saga (and fetches the Saga, solidifying artifacts and lands). Then you can recur it with Emry, Lurker of the Loch for maximum value.
You might even play it in some Dredge or Madness decks to get your Bazaar of Baghdad!

 

[inscho]

Yessssss! More Earthcraft shenanigans

The next step in the process is to add



So that you don't actually need to play Green and Earthcraft since you can go with Urza, Lord High Artificer, Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy as enablers.

This leads you to



An artifact that grabs both Academy and Cradle, adding redundancy. It's fetchable by Urza's Saga (and fetches the Saga, solidifying artifacts and lands). Then you can recur it with Emry, Lurker of the Loch for maximum value.
You might even play it in some Dredge or Madness decks to get your Bazaar of Baghdad!

I'm slightly leery of Academy, because the artifact decks are already so fast. I was hesitant to run Mox Opal for that reason. It's a good suggestion though.

This will be slotting into the cube soon instead of Expedition Map:

 

[inscho]

Some tweaks...

Out:


In:


Leaning up the mana curve more. Sacrifice, Berserkers, and Artifact decks get a boost. Cutting some perfectly good cards that are just not the right fit for my vision of archetypes like Meloku, Chariot, Evidence, Chick. I'm a bit hasty tossing in Recuitment Officer already, but I'm a big fan.

 

[inscho]

GCC Fight Club:

VS

I've been running Jace over Maniac since it was printed, but I'm beginning to rethink that.

Pro Lab Man:
- Is a creature and infinitely easier to recur or search for: Grapple with Past, Necromancy, Oath of Druids, Tracker's Instincts, Survivial of the Fittest, Reveillark, Takenuma Abandoned Mire, etc etc etc
- 3 mana allows for Unearth, Sevinne's Reclamation and Serra's Paragon to hit it
- Easier to splash and cast
- Opens the door for Cryptic Command which I've avoided as two cards has always seemed like a lot at this cube size

Pro Jace:
- Is independently useful as a control piece
- Draws you into blue as an anchor color
- Is a self contained engine
- Harder to kill with spot removal which is helpful when comboing out

Thoughts?

 

[safra]

You've got 8 walkers in 390 cards, and most of them are a little stronger - I think 1UUU Jace is dancing with Nahiri towards the less-archetype-dominating end of your spectrum. I think Lab Man is actually the right choice for your environment, for the reasons you mention - and since you've got Thassa's Oracle, obviously, I don't think you need three copies of the effect - so I support swapping Jace, Wielder of Mysteries for either Cryptic or even maybe a different Jace. Some interesting and powerful choices:

 

[shamizy]

If I had to choose between the two as the secondary piece to Oracle, which is the best version by far, then I'm going with Lab Man as he's just easier to recur and much easier to cast than that Jace. For this specific alternate win-con I think recursion is a big plus because a lot of times you can't just hide the card in your back pocket until you're ready to just win. It's kind of like a called shot out on the battlefield unlike Oracle with the ETB and both of these will definitely be targeted the closer you get to decking yourself out.

At that point, I like having fallback options that will let me rebuy them and pair with some card draw to actually pull off the W. I had a drafter win one time off of a grindy board stall where they'd just continually use Master of Death to whittle down their library until they could use a Reanimate effect to grab back Oracle and win. You don't get the ETB with Lab Man, but this recursion line just doesn't really exist with that Jace.

 

[Nanonox]

Do you ever count Nexus of Fate as a Lab man variant? Because once you've reached 7 mana and have milled yourself, it's basically the same thing. I know you already run it, which is why I am asking if a third piece is necessary.

 

[Erik Twice]

Lab Man, no question. Jace costs 1UUU and that's just pretty silly. Also, I don't think you ever run it without the combo.

 

[inscho]

Do you ever count Nexus of Fate as a Lab man variant? Because once you've reached 7 mana and have milled yourself, it's basically the same thing. I know you already run it, which is why I am asking if a third piece is necessary.

It's a good question. I do count it....it's on par with Oracle in my experience, and allows for some truly wacky builds.

I'm not sure whether a third piece is really necessary, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts. One typically wants two pieces for the combo deck to manifest in my experience, otherwise drafters will often end up pivoting towards more conventional decks like delve control or reanimator when you only get one. Some version of self-mill combo can be built in each of the blue-based guilds. At 390, there's a reasonable chance one of those pieces isn't in the draft. The deck doesn't need to be present each draft night, but outside of its handful of wincons, many of it's pieces are highly desirable for other strategies so there's a real danger that the support dries up. I think 3 feels like the right number if I want to see the deck pop up once every 2.5 drafts.

There is also the minor detail that Nexus doesn't exactly spell out its best uses. Which is something I'm not typically concerned with as drafters have more obvious lanes to fall back on. But in the absence of a regular playgroup, there will be a lot of first timers and I don't want to be the only one drafting the deck.

 

[sigh]

Jace is fine. He runs himself, so isn't the most interesting variant, but perfectly serviceable as a draw engine. Which may be a detraction here. How about that merfolk?

 

[Nanonox]

The deck doesn't need to be present each draft night, but outside of its handful of wincons, many of it's pieces are highly desirable for other strategies so there's a real danger that the support dries up.

This has been my experience as well. The win cons aren’t necessarily the difficult parts to get (especially the Nexus which isn’t as obvious), it’s the surrounding pieces.

So the reasons to increase to 3 would be as you’ve mentioned
1. To counteract the draft pool randomness
2. To have a more obvious piece than Nexus

Here are a few scenarios for number 1.
a. Only one piece is present, the deck doesn’t get drafted.
b. Two pieces are present. If you have the support you get the deck, if not, you have 2 dead picks.
c. Three pieces are present, once again, the limiting factor isn’t the win cons, it’s the support.

For that reason, if I were to include a third win con, it would be Jace because it’s playable outside of that deck in case the three pieces are opened, but the deck isn’t drafted. Lab man is more synergistic, but more narrow.

For number 2 that’s a good reason and your choice on how accessible you want that deck to be. It could be a cool level up moment for new players in the long run to find a “hidden” archetype.

 

[inscho]

This has been my experience as well. The win cons aren’t necessarily the difficult parts to get (especially the Nexus which isn’t as obvious), it’s the surrounding pieces.

So the reasons to increase to 3 would be as you’ve mentioned
1. To counteract the draft pool randomness
2. To have a more obvious piece than Nexus

Here are a few scenarios for number 1.
a. Only one piece is present, the deck doesn’t get drafted.
b. Two pieces are present. If you have the support you get the deck, if not, you have 2 dead picks.
c. Three pieces are present, once again, the limiting factor isn’t the win cons, it’s the support.

For that reason, if I were to include a third win con, it would be Jace because it’s playable outside of that deck in case the three pieces are opened, but the deck isn’t drafted. Lab man is more synergistic, but more narrow.

For number 2 that’s a good reason and your choice on how accessible you want that deck to be. It could be a cool level up moment for new players in the long run to find a “hidden” archetype.

I think I’ll give Lab Man a go, but keep your comments in mind. I like a good hidden archetype, there are several in the cube….Nexus is its own hidden archetype in a way. Bringing Lab Man makes space for a more casual self mill deck…Nexus is still around to “discover”

Making a couple other subs while I’m at it

Out:


In:


Cobbled Lancer > Cryptic Command: As mentioned before, I've been eyeing Command. Lancer is fine, but nonessential

Voice of Resurgence > Saffi Eriksdotter: I like Voice quite a bit, but I'd like to give Selesnya some more combo options.

Primal Might > Garruk, Wildspeaker: Happy to bring Garruk back. I felt that I wanted another ramp spell without running another ramp spell. Garruk does a lot of good things and bolsters some archetypes that are feeling a little undersupported (such as wildfire)