But seriously, I think we should talk less in absolutes ("Jitte/Batterskull/JTMS is GRBS", "4 Gravecrawlers is dope"), and more in, like, "Jitte is red flagged for GRBS, but should be ok if xyz", "multi-crawler works well if you support themes xyz".
General Jitte and assorted GRBS, P1P1, etc.
- Thread starter ahadabans
- Start date
Well, on that note, Jitte gets way more broken if you take Eric's approach and make more of your removal sorcery speed. The ability to kill the holder after attackers have been declared (thus preventing a re-equip) is key. As is a generally high removal density.
Right, and then that is a deliberate decision to make attach-ing things less good, which means your auras and other equipment also have to be pretty insane to be any good at all, and limits the viability of combat tricks that don't just end up with you 2-for-1ing yourself. Giant growth can't be viable in an environment where jitte isn't oppressive?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Maybe not 100%, but it's hard.
There's other ways to nerf jitte: higher average creature toughness, more artifact destruction, equipment penaltys (Cards like Soul Nova and Turn to Slag, but you know...good.), shroud cards (Not hexproof, OG shroud) etc
I mean these are things you should be considering anyways, but jitte is affected by them.
I actually remember doing this excercise a while back with my cube: Cut Gideon Jura, Wurmcoil Engine, Maze of Ith, Balance, but leave Mother of Runes, Jitte and Trechery (Balance wasn't actually that bad, but it was either lackluster or stupidly broken, so it got the boot)
Maybe a list of possible flags is useful?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Funny suggustion: If you wanna nerf jitte and don't mind a little red tape,
give it totem armor
It worked with control magic, it'd probably work here
Basically just control magic with totem armor
give it totem armor
It worked with control magic, it'd probably work here
Basically just control magic with totem armor
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Well, I feel it kinda descends into "do they have removal" territory at that point. Threads of Disloyalty has taught us that cheap control magics are super strong, even when limited.
It's one of those 3.5 mana spells like stone rain, but hey, if you think control magic is too strong (which in some cubes it certainly is)...
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Okay sure, but CML ran it and even though it couldn't steal vampire nighthawk, it was still a super strong card.
Let alone shit like sun titan
Let alone shit like sun titan
Whaaaaaaaaat Stone Rain is totally still a three mana spell. It probably wouldn't even be all that good in any of the Standard formats of the last six years.
If we're talking about half mana costs, though, there's always that pesky Counterspell that's a bit much at two and awful at three...
If we're talking about half mana costs, though, there's always that pesky Counterspell that's a bit much at two and awful at three...
Stone rain is a three mana spell if land destruction is designed to be viable. It's deliberately held back because, lets be honest here, we want to play magic. If land destruction is good enough to consider running at tournaments, we end up playing 'I hope you can win with only 2 mana (you can't)'.
Maybe I'm biased, but land destruction is nice because it's another tool to keep the greedy decks in check, and gives aggro decks a different angle of disruption. In the Standard format where Overgrown Battlement / Primeval Titan / Valakut was winning tournament after tournament, it was less a matter of trying to keep them at two mana - because that frankly impossible - it was keeping them below six. Stone Rain, in my opinion, would've been a fair and balanced tool to bring the fight to their manabase. It was otherwise really difficult to stop people from going T1 Treespeaker, T2 level, Explore, T3 Titan, and while that represents an ideal opening, big ol' Titans on turn four were more common than you'd imagine.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yes, but give people an inch and they'll take a foot. Stone rain preforms quite differently against other decks, and preforms really REALLY differently when you can run 8 (or 12 out of the sideboard, with stuff like cryoclaysm)
Stone Rain isn't that great if your curves are outrageously low.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah, Stone Rain still does stone (ahem) nothing against the aggro decks. Even in the format I just described, I'd be loathe to maindeck a playset of three mana sorceries that didn't do anything against half of the field. It would take something special before I'd want to run eight of them (!) in my starting sixty.
I mean, there are plenty of cards they print even now that hose aggro decks and keep them in check. What's wrong with the occasional card that keeps the big control and ramp decks from going hog wild?
I mean, there are plenty of cards they print even now that hose aggro decks and keep them in check. What's wrong with the occasional card that keeps the big control and ramp decks from going hog wild?
Uh, removal plus pressure does a reasonable job of killing ramp decks. They usually keep drawing more ramp if you deal with the first couple threats. Delver of Secrets forced ramp to play Whipflares and Slagstorms just playing Vapor Snags and 3/2s. Caw Blade just asked Jace to kindly -1. There's only so many times you can (re)play a Primeval Titan before you hit 0.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Well, a lot of the ramp threats in cube are removal resilient. If Primeval Titan fetches a manland and a wolf run (or if you ramp into Grave Titan or Simic Sky Swallower instead) the outcome might be very different.
You know what? You're right. Having the most powerful planeswalker ever printed handy - one that would later need to be banned in Standard - is a great solution when ramp decks are dominating the format and causing it to stagnate. All in all, Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a fitting side-by-side comparison for Stone Rain.
Thank you for your wisdom on this matter, Alex.
Jace and Stone Rain can both be viewed as GRBS, though. I like to be able to play the game without a single card ruining my day, and Stone Rain can do that even if I take it into account.
Ok, so the Caw-Blade example isn't the best. Jace did break Standard with the amount of card advantage the deck could muster. The chained Unsummons still answered the Titan. Tempo plays or removal keep the ramp player from recovering from the card disadvantage of only playing lands for 3-4 turns. Meanwhile, birds with Swords or flying bug-men whittle away at the life total.
The ramp threats often take multiple/specific cards to answer, which is the most annoying part. That's kinda the Titans' thing. Same with planeswalkers. I realize I'm just rehashing the dies to removal argument, and I wish I could articulate this better, but I don't like land destruction spells as answers to anything but Tron/Post. It either doesn't do anything or it does too much.
Ok, so the Caw-Blade example isn't the best. Jace did break Standard with the amount of card advantage the deck could muster. The chained Unsummons still answered the Titan. Tempo plays or removal keep the ramp player from recovering from the card disadvantage of only playing lands for 3-4 turns. Meanwhile, birds with Swords or flying bug-men whittle away at the life total.
The ramp threats often take multiple/specific cards to answer, which is the most annoying part. That's kinda the Titans' thing. Same with planeswalkers. I realize I'm just rehashing the dies to removal argument, and I wish I could articulate this better, but I don't like land destruction spells as answers to anything but Tron/Post. It either doesn't do anything or it does too much.
That's fair. I apologize for my snippy response earlier. Responding to sarcasm with sarcasm isn't usually the best tack.
I think this just comes down to player preference, and from the responses to this thread, it's actually becoming more clear to me that Wizards has done the right thing by removing Stone Rain and its ilk from the realm of playability. Whether or not land destruction is fair or balanced for any particular metagame remains up for debate, but it feels like people have very strong negative responses to "not being able to play Magic". If things like strong land destruction and strong counterspells are contributors to these emotional reactions, then it's probably better off not to subject the general Magic-playing public to this facet of the game.
I'm just glad I can keep running land destruction in my cube.
I think this just comes down to player preference, and from the responses to this thread, it's actually becoming more clear to me that Wizards has done the right thing by removing Stone Rain and its ilk from the realm of playability. Whether or not land destruction is fair or balanced for any particular metagame remains up for debate, but it feels like people have very strong negative responses to "not being able to play Magic". If things like strong land destruction and strong counterspells are contributors to these emotional reactions, then it's probably better off not to subject the general Magic-playing public to this facet of the game.
I'm just glad I can keep running land destruction in my cube.
Uh, I will say that Ramp is pretty fragile if your finishers don't have inherent protection, so in a way I agree with Alex's sentiment. It's one of the problems I had when designing the Eldrazi cube.
That said, I will appeal to environmental factors and say that neither Jace nor Stone Rain have been remotely ruining games around here.
That said, I will appeal to environmental factors and say that neither Jace nor Stone Rain have been remotely ruining games around here.