Sure, but boomer junk sounds like stuff that would suck in Cube nowadays compared to current offerings. That doesn't describe Venser, Shaper Savant. If it was just a flash Man-O'-War variant I'd agree, but it can do so much more and definitely holds up nowadays. It's still a great card in 2021 for Cube.
Sets (MH2) Modern Horizons 2 Previews
- Thread starter TrainmasterGT
- Start date
I was only frowning at the boomer descriptor.
I only just learned this week that I'm a "Geriatric Millennial" or some shit
True, I guess I was thinking more that I'd just be using the treasure to go extra wide and/or fire more burn to the face as the Aggro player. I guess you just hope to keep hitting things that are easily castable with single pips.
It's definitely a pushed card with all the extra bells and whistles, but I just feel like most decks should have game against 2/1s without any evasion.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Okay boomberI was only frowning at the boomer descriptor.
I only just learned this week that I'm a "Geriatric Millennial" or some shit
could not resist
Oh I think venser is an extremely weak card by modern power level standards. The thing with cube though, as I'm sure riptiders are well aware, is that cubes exist at a wide array of power levels and just because venser no longer really cuts it near the top of the pyramid doesn't mean it can't be a fun include lower down.
Is this better than Pia Nalaar? I like that it's an artifact and 3 toughness, but tapping kind of sucks...even if you are netting a card. Pia's abilities work so well together.
Yeah, I don't agree at all. If you're talking Constructed where 4 CMC isn't efficient then sure, but I don't think it's applicable to most cubes. Venser is still one of the best blue creatures in cube given the flexibility of what you get at instant speed for 4 mana. The typical 3 CMC bounce creature effect at sorcery speed isn't as good as it once was, but I don't think it applies to him.
Venser's not generating value that leaves you with something extra like some of the designs we get nowadays, but its utility are what let it still find homes in powerful environments. Being able to bounce problem permanents off the field, set back development with a land bounce, or just do a Remand impression on curve is still very strong gameplay. If you can use that ETB effect twice in a turn with a blink effect like Soulherder or Thassa, Deep-Dwelling it can be backbreaking. If there's nothing relevant you can just hold it back and leave your mana open, worst case it's a Flash 2/2 that bounced one of their lands on an empty boardstate and will then start attacking next turn.
Unless you're straight up trying to port Modern/Legacy over where 4 CMC is too much, Venser is still a good cube card. Its extremely flexible, has a vast number of potential interactions with other cube inclusions on a variety of power levels. It's strong but not busted, even 14 years later. It's no design mistake ala Uro or Oko which broke the game, but I don't think that makes it extremely weak.
I mentioned my opinion on venser vs subtlety earlier in the thread
I was thinking of Funch's cube in particular when I brought up context. I think Venser is a stronger card in a greater volume of cubes.
I was thinking of Funch's cube in particular when I brought up context. I think Venser is a stronger card in a greater volume of cubes.
Again, I'm not talking about "most cubes" or the average cube, or whatever, I'm speaking of cubes that exist at the upper levels of the power level pyramid. I'm well aware that Venser is totally serviceable in lower power formats that are significantly less mana efficient, that's fine, those formats are powered down to the point where 4 mana reactive bounce spells are playable and that's great, that's a place where stuff like Venser can continue to have a home. Cubes nearing the higher levels of the power level pyramid are not like that though, they do more closely reflect eternal formats like modern in that expensive cards are very ineffective due to the natural power creep of the game. Venser used to be a very strong 4 mana card 15 years ago but nowadays it is competing against Oko, Uro, Kroxa, Wrenn and Six, JTMS, Snapcaster, Dreadhorde Arcanist, Young Pyromancer, Baleful Strix, True-Name Nemesis, Vendilion Clique, Brazen Borrower, Omnath, Chandra Torch of Defiance, etc etc etc. The quality of threats is so much higher than it used to and if you're constructing a cube, even a singleton one, where you are very strict about cutting mana inefficient cards and always keeping up to do date with the most recent most power creeped cards, your average mana value is going to plummet and these sorts of old expensive creatures aren't going to hold up. I would know, I have several cubes like that and I haven't been running venser for several years, it just isn't powerful enough anymore.
I think it being an artifact alone puts it ahead. Can sac itself to power its abilities, and has really neat interactions with cards like Emry, Scrap Trawler, and Goblin Engineer (above what Pia has). It is true that Pia has a more focused approach, but she also costs a lot of mana to run. 2RR to get the same buff as this, and she can only pump artifact creatures rather than any creature.
My argument is that those cubes aren't "higher powered" anymore, or at least not by what I would consider to be "high powered" like actual power level maximization within a design restriction type cubes. MTGO vintage cube for example is a low power cube that just has a very large power delta, it includes obviously broken cards like Black Lotus and then a ton of garbage cards that don't lead to competitive archetypes.
But that's adding extra qualifiers to fit your definition of high-powered that are atypical. Which people like me, and most cube designers, would not be privy to because we don't design or evaluate along the same parameters.
So yeah, in the scenario you're mentioning I can see Venser not making the cut. I just don't think that barometer is generally applicable.
So yeah, in the scenario you're mentioning I can see Venser not making the cut. I just don't think that barometer is generally applicable.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I'll have to side with Funch here. I love Venser, and you can all pry it from my cold, dead hands (or rather my cube's cold, dead... hands?), but that doesn't mean it should be considered remotely close to still being one of the best blue creatures for cube. It can definitely, and easily, be one of the best blue creatures in a cube, but it's worse than a lot of blue creatures that got printed since imo.
Ultimately though, I think the discussion boils down to what we understand "one of the best cards in cube" to mean. Personally, and I think Funch reasons on the same level, I would not interpret this as "one of the cards that is the best in the majority of cubes regardless of the power level of the cube". Rather, when we're talking about "one of the best cards in cube" for me that brings along the assumption that we're looking at the card's "goodness" in the context of cubes "at the top of the pyramid" as Funch put it, that is the pyramid of power level. I would bet that if we took a deck from Funch's high powered cube, it would eat up the average non-combo deck from an average vintage cube, so my reference for top of the pyramid is something like Funch's cube.
Ultimately though, I think the discussion boils down to what we understand "one of the best cards in cube" to mean. Personally, and I think Funch reasons on the same level, I would not interpret this as "one of the cards that is the best in the majority of cubes regardless of the power level of the cube". Rather, when we're talking about "one of the best cards in cube" for me that brings along the assumption that we're looking at the card's "goodness" in the context of cubes "at the top of the pyramid" as Funch put it, that is the pyramid of power level. I would bet that if we took a deck from Funch's high powered cube, it would eat up the average non-combo deck from an average vintage cube, so my reference for top of the pyramid is something like Funch's cube.
I don't think this is true at all. Venser was pretty mediocre when I ran him in a mid-power environment, and I can't see him getting better anywhere up the curve. A lot of the environments that run high-power cards and are still able to accommodate Venser tend to be slow or more inconsistent than the types of Cubes we can build with modern design techniques. In that sort of space, a 4-mana Unsubstantiate on a stick is perfectly reasonable. But in an environment where most decks won't be curving out past 4 except under special circumstances, Venser, Shaper Savant is too inefficient to be good consistently.
None of this means you're wrong for liking the card and wanting to continue to play it in your Cube, it just means that the card is no longer a viable option in Cubes that are aiming for faster gameplay at high power levels.
Well I'll be damned- the White member of the Evoke Elemental Incarnation cycle is actually good! I'm quite a big fan of this card, it seems like the usual mana advantage gain that can make cards like Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile so strong in limited formats is offset here by having to exile the card in order to cast it for cheap. I wanted to make my White section a bit better, and I think this card will be a good way to do it if I end up getting a copy. My only fear with this specific card for my specific environment is that it will still be a bit of a blowout against some of the 4 MV Baneslayers I want to play in my Green section to help capture the feel I'm looking for.
Double post but I think this is a good one- meet Esper Sentinel!
I think this card is going to be a really neat way to help aggressive White decks maintain a reasonable card count against spell-heavy midrange and control strategies. Realistically, those decks won't always be able to pay the cost to avoid letting the Sentinel's Controller draw a card, so the sentinel can do quite a bit of work as a draw engine over the course of a game. Esper Sentinel also has the potential for some nice equipment and +1/+1 counter synergies, as the cost to prevent a draw is tied to it's power. I like this card a lot and will be including it if it isn't too expensive.
I think this card is going to be a really neat way to help aggressive White decks maintain a reasonable card count against spell-heavy midrange and control strategies. Realistically, those decks won't always be able to pay the cost to avoid letting the Sentinel's Controller draw a card, so the sentinel can do quite a bit of work as a draw engine over the course of a game. Esper Sentinel also has the potential for some nice equipment and +1/+1 counter synergies, as the cost to prevent a draw is tied to it's power. I like this card a lot and will be including it if it isn't too expensive.
This card is nuts hahahaha. Yes, I do want a zero mana plow that is also sometimes a 5 mana idiot that kills things on etb. I do think it could have been 4 mana on the creature side though given how fucked in half Grief and Subtlety are though but w/e it's white, gotta be worse or w/e, I'll still cube it.
I like this card a lot for constructed D&T and also in super high powered combo centric blue skewing cubes for mono white prison. Card does good things against a very specific kind of format, but those formats are cool so I dig this guy.
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