Sets (MH2) Modern Horizons 2 Previews

It sounds to me like you are creating a cube that's purposefully unfun so that you can contrast it with your cube philosophy and create a false dichotomy.

Honestly, a lot of what you state sounds really patronizing to me and designed to gaslight people. I feel verbally abused and I believe others do, as well.


I honestly don't think you could have come up with a more bad faith reading of my design goals if you tried. Wow.

1) Fun is subjective. Not objective. There is no such fucking thing as objectively fun or unfun. For you, maybe retail limited is a boatload of fun, maybe for me it isn't. But I'm fully capable of designing a game that isn't my cup of tea in every possible way and instead caters to a different demographic so collectively myself and the other players can have a more enjoyable time. @Metallix87 is famous for his saying "Magic is like pizza and sex, even really bad Magic is still a pretty good time." I might not be IN LOVE with a lower power, lower decision density, higher power delta cube in the same way that I am with my main cube, but that's fine, I'll still have fun anyway, because Magic is fun, even if some forms of it are more fun for me than others.

2) The needs of less experienced players are very different than those of more experienced and "spikier" players. I play Magic with a lot of people and while my core cube playgroup is a bunch of former or current grinders and they are all fairly experienced that isn't true of some of my good and close personal real life friends who still like playing Magic from time to time. I can't just break out my normal cube and draft it with less experienced players, they won't have a good time. The format is too challenging, too decision intensive, and requires far too much of an in depth understanding of the game for them to be able to have a chance when they play against anyone of an unequal and higher skill level. These less experienced players I know maybe only draft retail limited occasionally on arena, if at all, and mostly engage with the game on a casual level. They aren't super invested, they don't know what a "xerox deck" is, they have no clue how to concoct a consistent fetch/dual manabase for a 3+ color deck, they don't know when they should play a significantly reduced land count and as a result they struggle immensely during deckbuilding and sideboarding. I want a cube that can be at their skill level, that can allow them to have an easier time doing the many challenging things that draft sometimes asks of them, and I want them to be able to win games significantly more often, even though they are sometimes much lower skill than their opponents so they can have an enjoyable experience playing the game instead of getting frustrated and wanting to do something else. And I can design a format that achieves these goals far better than any traditional booster product can as those packs have to contain cards for all sorts of other demographics in order to be a successful product, but my noobie cube can focus almost entirely on giving a satisfactory experience to my less experienced friends.

I think it's mostly about language. I don't think I have any problems with different opinions rwgarding cube design. It's just a game arter all. But I can see where japahn is coming from, too. I hope funch stays with us, but maybe can formulate his thoughts without phrases like "noob shit", "boomer junk" or a dozen versions of "fuck".

His posts sound to me like the opposite of respectful, and I don't think I've felt so disrespected in... years? It's impressive how he can sound so toxic to me and other people, and yet completely ok to you and Jason. My guess (and it's just a guess) is because I come from a high-context culture, and other people might be from low-context cultures. So I'm used to reading between the lines. And his message is crafted so that it explicitly says something more or less ok, but it's downright ugly if you read between the lines.


I know my manner of speaking can rub a lot of people the wrong way but I simply ask that you try to look past the colorful and vulgar adjectives to understand the actual substance of what I'm saying and I will try my best to be more mindful and phrase things in ways that maybe don't seem as inherently off-putting, although I can make no guarantee that I will always succeed in this, I hope you can instead assume the best intentions and politely ask for clarification if and when I inevitably slip up, rather than simply assuming I'm trying to attack you.

I was born and raised in New York City, everyone there has a mouth like a sailor, not just truckers and construction workers, but tiny grandmas too. To say my cultural background is low-context would be an understatement. These words simply don't convey the same level of offense here as they might where you and some other folks are from and also if you go back and read my posts you'll see that not a single one of these swears is EVER targeted at another individual, it's always at inanimate objects (magic cards). When I say Venser is a shitty card, I'm not saying the people who play with Venser are shitty people. Conflating the two is a totally dishonest way of reading my points and is reading things between the lines that simply aren't there. There is no underlying and unstated insult lurking beneath the surface, I said what I said, and only what I said, and I didn't mean anything other than exactly what I said. I'm not trying to trick you and sneak in some well disguised insults. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I simply don't have any emotional investment in singular cards, to me, they are simply game pieces, tools we game designers use to achieve our goals. There's no value judgment attached when I say a card is bad, bad cards can serve useful purposes just as much as good cards can and like when @Jason Waddell spoke of True-Name Nemesis there are circumstances where a good card can contextually be bad for one's design goals. We all know Black Lotus is a really fucking good card, but many of us exclude it for equally good reasons.
 
Last edited:

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
I know my manner of speaking can rub a lot of people the wrong way but I simply ask that you try to look past the colorful and vulgar adjectives to understand the actual substance of what I'm saying and I will try my best to be more mindful and phrase things in ways that maybe don't seem as inherently off-putting, although I can make no guarantee that I will always succeed in this, I hope you can instead assume the best intentions and politely ask for clarification if and when I inevitably slip up, rather than simply assuming I'm trying to attack you.
This is all I really wanted to hear.

My issue has just been the language, so I'll hold you to this, and will poke if the 'mouth like a sailor' has gone to too far.
 
@Onderzeeboot You might actually be a saint.

Unfortunately for many of the rest of us, previous interactions on other boards lead to not giving the benefit of the doubt. Many posts read exactly like what people had to wade through over at r/mtgcube for the better part of a year before they got sick of it. I should know; I'm one of those who started calling Funch and friends out more often as they continued to make that place miserable for discussion. Frankly I'm seeing the same things crop up here and it's not promising.

There was consistent talking down to others, passive aggressive shots at other designers and their ideas, and in general just being jerks until many people just didn't want to post any longer. And the crazy thing is I thought he had interesting ideas and thoughtful writing. It's everything else that ended up being the problem. As @japahn mentioned:
I like when people challenge my views as well, and I actually agree with almost everything of what he says about design! It is about how he says is, and how he diminishes others' opinions, then throws at the end of the post something like "but you do whatever shit you want because it's your cube lol".

This is not a disagreement about cube design. This is a disagreement about how people talk.

This is pretty much verbatim what happened a year back. Get into thread looking to argue to win rather than engage in discussion and just constant passive aggressive shots for the better part of a year. And it's not just a small subset of people who took offense; I'd argue that the majority of that sub got sick of it by the end. It wasn't until he got banned months ago and all his buddies ran back to Discord that things improved considerably.

And I'm definitely not the only one that feels this way. I don't want to see the same thing happen to these boards that happened over at r/mtgcube. If you want to be civil and talk about this niche hobby I'm all for it and more than willing to engage. Be respectful and mindful of others and be open for constructive discussion, it's an extremely low bar to clear. However, I don't have the patience to get into arguments followed up by well its your cube so whatever. That's just condescending as all hell.

Maybe you have a different perspective from Discord interactions, but I can't say that my previous experiences have been pleasant or that I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. If he's just gonna keep acting as he did before, I have zero interest in humoring that shit.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I'll check in here.

For me this has been a tricky time. I don't really like doing any sort of moderation here, and long term members know there have been consecutive years where the most I've done is delete threads created by literal spambots.

These last few weeks have been quite different. It's tricky because I can see both perspectives. On the one hand there's the long-standing members who are getting hurt and frustrated. On the other there's a newcomer with a history of conflict elsewhere in the community.

Even today I've had multiple people message me with their concerns about the situation.

So while I do acknowledge that there is a clear common denominator, in many of these situations, I think people have been offended by things that were not at all intended maliciously.

That said, given that this is a public space and we have people from different perspectives coming in, I do think there is plenty of onus on the poster to write things in a way to avoid these misinterpretations.

@SirFunchalot, I guess my suggestion would be to try and foster some good will around here. These boards have transformed from being basically conflict-free to very conflict heavy since your arrival. I don't think you've always been in the wrong in these conflicts, but nonetheless they continue to occur. I know people like @japahn to be very chill, thoughtful types who for years haven't butted heads with anyone. So while I don't think he judged your intent properly in this situation, he's far from the only one. Your style of communication and history of conflict elsewhere has led to people to assume you act in bad intent, and to not give you the benefit of the doubt. In this context, I think it's quite important to make the extra effort to not be misinterpreted. When I look at your posts here and elsewhere, it's very easy for them to be read two different ways. There's the way that @Onderzeeboot will read them, but it's also very easy to read them as belittling and condescending.

Truth be told I don't want to spend my time intervening and deescalating conflict. I want to spend my energy making content or goofing around here without having to put out fires. So if nothing else than for my sake I'd ask you to be on your best behavior.
 
@shamizy
Ah okay this all makes sense now. You're just some bitter and disgruntled nerd with a chip on your shoulder who is totally and completely incapable of having a discussion with someone with whom you disagree with. Got it. Block feature is free by the way.

@Jason Waddell
I feel similarly, engaging this constant conflict isn't exactly how I want to spend my time either.
LMAO
Grow up
 

landofMordor

Administrator
Hey folks. We'd all benefit from the life skills of walking away from a conversation, thread, or user if it's not benefiting our mental well-being. Everybody involved. Just take a break. It doesn't matter what was whose fault and who finished the fight. If you're feeling upset, the best way to fix that isn't slinging mud here -- it's giving your local human, canine, or feline a hug and unplugging. Don't let a bunch of 1s and 0s put a damper on your real life.

And don't indulge the tiny dopamine boost you get from putting down another user with 1s and 0s of your own. We're better than that.
 
abidinggrace.jpg

Obviously, the self sacrificing guys will loop themselves and the other ones are cards that would generate value more generally or with a sac outlet. I listed fewer of the latter because they're less potent here.

Fogs or Gain

Elvish Eulogist if you want to go tribal with it.

Protection

Alseid can protect Grace. The rest are a little weak, only resulting in a DIY Mother of Runes or so.

Removal


Counterspells


Ramp


Draw-ish


Rusalkas

I didn't include other 1 MV sac outlets, but these guys are kind of alright to sac and recur themselves.

Tokens


Other


Redundancy
Let me know what I missed!
Is it just me or does this feel like some grindy, old school value?
 
Last edited:

landofMordor

Administrator
Let me know what I missed!
Is it just me or does this feel like some grindy, old school value?
Lol that was hilariously comprehensive. I definitely can't add anything w.r.t. the synergy potential.

I'm also wondering what the floor of this enchantment is -- if my only 1-drops are stuff like Kird Ape and Mother of Runes, is it worth spending 3 mana to achieve a 1-mana rebate? I'm kinda leaning towards not, but would appreciate other perspectives.
 
I love a good anthem on a stick, and this is real good. Doesn't work with a tokens archetype obviously, but works with any number of other strategies you can put in white (equipment aggro, fliers, +1/+1 counter beatdown, etc)
View attachment 4185
i am not sure here. to achieve Serra Angel (an uncommon by today’s standards) stats you need two other creatures in play, and the body providing the anthem is extremely weak to removal. vigilance buff is nice though... not buffing tokens hurts in white more than almost anywhere else, generally speaking. i dunno if i like this a whole lot more than, say, C+ at retail level even because of the “get blown out” risk it carries.
 
Lol that was hilariously comprehensive. I definitely can't add anything w.r.t. the synergy potential.

I'm also wondering what the floor of this enchantment is -- if my only 1-drops are stuff like Kird Ape and Mother of Runes, is it worth spending 3 mana to achieve a 1-mana rebate? I'm kinda leaning towards not, but would appreciate other perspectives.
floor is very low. i currently can’t justify running it, but if i broke singleton or just added some nice value 1 drops, maybe. you want to either:
1. be curving very low in general in your environment,
2. heavily supporting Savannah Lions aggro,
3. breaking singleton on midrangey one drop stuff like Thraben Inspector to achieve good density.

as a drafter, i would want to have 5+ one drops in my deck before i would evaluate this as “doing something.”
 
Lol that was hilariously comprehensive. I definitely can't add anything w.r.t. the synergy potential.

I'm also wondering what the floor of this enchantment is -- if my only 1-drops are stuff like Kird Ape and Mother of Runes, is it worth spending 3 mana to achieve a 1-mana rebate? I'm kinda leaning towards not, but would appreciate other perspectives.

I'd also lean towards no. Decks where I see Ape or Mom usually are still trying to develop the board early to apply pressure through T3 and late game this isn't really all that impactful if you're buying back one of those. Mom might be a different story if you've got a solid board. If the opponent has stabilized. Its value definitely goes up with more 1-drops who essentially function like roadblocks after they get something on ETB or can sac themselves for effects. I think if you could find a way to make that lifegain trigger matter it could be a different story.
 
if my only 1-drops are stuff like Kird Ape and Mother of Runes, is it worth spending 3 mana to achieve a 1-mana rebate? I'm kinda leaning towards not, but would appreciate other perspectives.
Probably not. I think you need to be looking to "abuse" it a bit rather than let it trickle in value from creatures that are past their part of the game. "Midrangey one drops" is a good take on it from blacksmithy.
 
yeah i do not consider it to be an aggro card, i may be silly on this but i find “sideboard wrath insurance” to be a bad use case for the thing. like, if you just got wrathed and opponent is setting up their wincon, odds are your end-step kird ape ain’t gonna contribute meaningfully to stopping what they’re doing. and “gain 1 life” is not something most real aggro decks care about whatsoever. you really wanna be in some manner of dredgy midrange for this thing to put in work for you. thankfully there are more tools than ever lately to put white into that archetype space
EDIT: i know i JUST SAID “support savannah lions aggro” as a reason to try it, but i think it’s still going to be weak there, just not as weak as if you throw into a list with literally no decks running bunches of one drops
 
I don't even like to spend $7 on a nonfoil land until it leaves Standard...
Haha, that's fair.

Luckily I feel like this set is going to be opened a hell of a lot as people crack for fetches and all these new cards which should drop prices drastically across the board. Add in the million different versions of cards we get nowadays bringing down prices and it's never been a better time to be a cube curator.
 
I'm pretty sure this set is gonna convince to take the cube's power level up a notch or two for a while. Some stuff I'm excited about is definitely too good for my cube. Not way too good, but enough to keep some crappy cute cards in sideboard...
 
I'm pretty sure this set is gonna convince to take the cube's power level up a notch or two for a while. Some stuff I'm excited about is definitely too good for my cube. Not way too good, but enough to keep some crappy cute cards in sideboard...
Yeah, I'm very happy that I chose to up my power level a bit, a bunch of these cards fit naturally with what I am trying to accomplish without necessarily forcing me in a new direction.

I mean, look at this thing:
obsidiancharmaw.jpg

It's a Avalanche Riders dragon! Unlike Stormbreath Dragon which punishes White decks and Glorybringer that punishes decks with creatures, this card actually has a unique ability and only punishes decks with greedy mana! Plus, it's a mulldrifter style card in that it actually provides immediate value when it comes into play! This is a good card, I'm happy it exists, but it's not something that is necessarily desirable in low power environments.
 
Top