Sets [OGW] Oath of the Gatewatch Spoiler Thread

[Eric Chan]

So a card that encourages you to play a bunch of them feels like a step in the wrong direction. Maybe I'm off base here though.

No, I'm with you completely. "Counting planeswalkers" seems like a lame mechanic, as is encouraging players to build their decks towards all-out planeswalker wars. It sounds good in theory, and might be fun the first couple of times, but after the umpteenth board in standard gets clogged up by high-loyalty walkers on both sides with no way to interact with each other, I think it'll get old. These days I'm convinced that planeswalkers are the main source of no-synergy, all-goodstuff midrange decks.

Also, when you have multiple planeswalkers out, it's really hard to not already be winning. This feels like the ultimate win-more mechanic.

 

[ahadabans]

Would you be willing to make a short post about what manlands do for the game? Is there already a lil primer floating around 6 pages deep in a discussion about potatoes?

Someone with better writing skills can do this more justice, but my 2 cents... Manlands can't be countered nor can they be targeted by most (all?) targeted discard spells - so they slide past the two most powerful control mechanics. They also are typically immune to sorcery speed removal of all types (including sweepers), which means they are good in and good against decks running that kind of removal. They fix colors and can later trade a repeatable cost for a threat. But because they ETB tapped and generally are expensive to activate with typically overcoated bodies, there is a cost to running them. I feel they are well balanced, go in most decks and keep certain strategies honest by their presence in the format (this is probably even more true in meta's with walkers). Mechanically, they add another interesting element to the game since they function different than other card types in how you use them. It's a simple design that adds depth to the game without adding a ton of complexity. Really, that's the best kind of design IMO. I think that's what I admire most about them. Many times, I will have the option of activating a manland or playing a spell, and it isn't always clear what the right choice is. I love running lands that have utility like that, especially when it adds decision points during the actual playing of the game.

 

[Erik]

I'm fairly certain I'll add this guy. I already run and have had success with top of the deck type synergies (running wolf-skull shaman, mirri's guile, Mul daya channelers).

 

[sigh]

I like that Eldrazi. Already a beating on it's own, and can make a buncha your doods cooler. On the Oath of Jace: I'm less concerned about the PW side of it. We already are down to about an average of 2% of the cube as PWs. Sure it could incentivize random player X to try and grab as many as possible, but it's also a 3 mana spell that is blue and actually uses/interacts with the board. Mulldrifter is the only other big on-enter Blue draw permanent we really use, and that's 5 mana/more easily killed. This is a cool option for that deck. And yes, if you want to push it, there's always more reason to give blink goodies.

In short: For our cubes that run precious few PW's in each color, I don't think that is going to be more than an incidental scry 1 (maaybe 2) sometimes. It will be a good reanimator piece, blink piece, etc etc.

Edit: I do like man-lands, but space is short. Might be the sort of cycle I'd give some number of "Pick manland of your choice" cards for.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Manlands are great because it's a threat that doesn't take up a card.

It's kinda that simple sure the not dying to wraths is nice, but really it's just another thing that will win you the game that you needed in your deck anyways (Lands)

 

[Ferritovore]

Hm, people put manlands in their ULD right? And some people have talked about including narrower spells in their ULD, but other people have claimed that cards (as in "pelakka wurm is a card") don't go in the ULD? Iiiiinteresting. Think I'm gonna put some manlands in there along with doofy Secret Plans.

 

[vennythekid]

I had a "Manland of Choice" slot in my ULD for a while, that let a drafter choose one of:

but have since cut the slot because it was nearly always first picked as strong fixing with upside. I've also changed my ULD philosophy to mostly exclude "guildgate+" fixing (I had the temples for a while too, and have since moved them to the main draft), and this cycle is much stronger fixing than just guildgates.

I still have

in my ULD, and all are medium-to-strong level picks, but without being color fixing. I like these a lot, especially Mutavault for its random tribal synergies, and that it's a strong play for most types of decks, provided their fixing is otherwise good.

Manlands are great because they don't take up a card

This exactly. Most 40-card decks want 17 lands, so in matches you're playing 23 spells vs your opponents 23 spells. BUT when one of your lands is a manland, you have 17 lands and 24 spells rather than 23, which is a large advantage in games.

 

[Aoret]

This exactly. Most 40-card decks want 17 lands, so in matches you're playing 23 spells vs your opponents 23 spells. BUT when one of your lands is a manland, you have 17 lands and 24 spells rather than 23, which is a large advantage in games.

I think Venny is probably right here. I get away with it because my land situation is so much more powerful than normal, but for other ULDs without my land rules these are probably an issue.

 

[Goldenpineapple]

At least this is more interesting than just slapping a keyword on them, but I'm still not impressed. It's pretty awful in actual combat, bouncing off or trading with a 1/2 body.

Well this is hilarious on some number of levels.

 

[whydirt]

I'm actually glad that WotC hasn't gotten too "creative" with the dual manlands. They're already wordy, powerful cards as is. Getting to decide whether trading or bouncing in combat is better for you is actually a fun decision.

What would an impressive manland look like to you?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'm actually glad that WotC hasn't gotten too "creative" with the dual manlands. They're already wordy, powerful cards as is. Getting to decide whether trading or bouncing in combat is better for you is actually a fun decision.

What would an impressive manland look like to you?

 

[Ferritovore]

faerie conclave

 

[Tzenmoroth]

Embodiment of Fury
3R
Creature - Elemental
Trample

Land creatures you control have trample.

Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may have target land you control become a 3/3 Elemental creature with haste until end of turn. It's still a land.

4/3

Now this is one hell of an uncommon. I'm not sure its quite pushed enough for my cube but I love this card already.

 

[whydirt]

I mean, yes, these are the best in class for creature lands. Wanting others to match up so the cycle is more balanced is a fair request, I guess, but I think I'd rather have the cycle balanced at the lower end since at least for the dual land ones, almost any body would make them playable in cube. The mono-color cycle is another kettle of fish since the tempo loss is a bigger drawback.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I mean, yes, these are the best in class for creature lands. Wanting others to match up so the cycle is more balanced is a fair request, I guess, but I think I'd rather have the cycle balanced at the lower end since at least for the dual land ones, almost any body would make them playable in cube. The mono-color cycle is another kettle of fish since the tempo loss is a bigger drawback.

Celestial Colonnade is a monstrosity and likely should never have been printed. It is impressive however. The other two are at the right power level though, I think. I also like Shambling Vent, lifelink is lovely on a manland. I do think they could have pushed the enemy cycle just a bit more, to get it at the about the same level as Stirring Wildwood, which I think has shown to be in a perfect spot.

For the record, I find Raging Ravine to also be a bit much, all of the others (besides Colonnade that is) are either sweet or underwhelming.

 

[Ferritovore]

Cool infos. I've never actually seen Stirring Wildwood, but the idea of the trees and the land rising up to pluck a monster out of the sky is pretty fucking evocative!

 

[Goldenpineapple]

What would an impressive manland look like to you?

I actually like all of the worldwake manlands and both of the BFZ cards. I don't like any of the oath ones. Lavaclaw reaches is kind of a mess where its power ceiling is very high but its color combination is abysmally pigeonholed by wizards into low land count archetypes, so it just doesn't fit its colors' playstyles very well, and that is no fault of the card itself.

I would rather it have had frostburn weird's ability for so it could be a little more flexible. This way it just dies to every kind of removal. I originally though you could just flip it back, but if your opponent responds to the first activation, the removal will always resolve before it becomes a 4/1. Gross.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Colonnade usually feels over the line. Treetop Village also. The rest are pretty cool. Tar Pit, Faerie Conclave, Raging Ravine, and Mishra's Factory are where I'd like the "strong manland" bar to be set most of the time. Shambling Vent and Stirring Wildwood hang nicely in that company. The rest of the two color ones are all playable, but you give up a smidge of power level. Ghithu Encampment is playable, but just barely. Spawning Pool and Foreboding Watchtower are pretty weak.

 

[RavebornMuse]

Super disappointed in the U/R one. Like, they didn't even really try, honestly.

I was personally hoping for a 2/1 prowess for or the speculated "when ~ deals combat damage to an opponent, you may draw a card. if you do, discard a card" or w/e people were thinking abt. A 1/4 (???) that goes 4/1 (???) is both
a) super who-cares, and
b) not doing a thing for a colour pair that has always struggled to have much of an identity outside of spells-matter, which I guess they were shy to tolerate for the manland

Funnily enough, I kind of like Oath of Nissa, despite formerly being sure the cycle was going to be a no-go for cube. It is essentially a narrow green cantrip that, In The Right Deck™, can draw you whatever you need somewhat conditionally; in particular, I like how very TOL-manipulation it feels, though I'd have to play it to see how worthwhile it actually could be. It also gently supports SuperFriends, and though I think SuperFriends is a very mean deck to draft in cube, I don't think I particularly mind if players get a small form of relief attached to this kinda-neat dig effect.

But this evaluation is probably just that ol' new card high deceiving me and I'll laugh at it for being garbage in a month.

 

[vennythekid]

I'm actually glad that WotC hasn't gotten too "creative" with the dual manlands. They're already wordy, powerful cards as is. Getting to decide whether trading or bouncing in combat is better for you is actually a fun decision.

What would an impressive manland look like to you?

Funny enough, the simplest manland was the most dominant in Standard for a long, long time. Simple, yet potent:

 

[Ferritovore]

Funny enough, the simplest manland was the most dominant in Standard for a long, long time. Simple, yet potent:

Hard counter to stifle!

 

[sigh]

I do like mutavault a lot. Personally I'm pretty ok with this UR land. It's in the color combination that wants to be flexible, wither get on the back foot and defend, or rush in for the kill when the opportunity allows. It's not built directly around spells/the Izzet ideology, it's built around your deck being directly that, and filling roles with that knowledge in mind.

First off: I'm not certain it dying to removal the way it does is super relevant, but obviously could matter. The only one-damage spell I can think of that we would run would be Flame Jab. We run a decent amount of 2-damage burn spells, but that also kills the GB, UB, RB, RW, U, and R manlands (and mutavault/an already attacking Mishra's factory). Bolt adds pre-counter GR, G, and WB. So most of the manlands die to some sort of burn. shouldn't you only be flipping this when you've got 7 mana and a Memory Lapse in hand or the opponent is run dry trying to deal with your spells and now you can use it to finish the job?

Overall I think: this is actually perfect in a spell-focused color pair (and why should it have more of an identity than that?). With fewer creatures in your deck, it lets you block earlier in the game. With more counter/hand hate/removal, it patiently waits for you to open the path later. I'll be trying it out.

 

[Chris Taylor]

in most of the UR decks my cube builds, both prowess and control, I think I'd prefer faerie conclave

 

[RavebornMuse]

in most of the UR decks my cube builds, both prowess and control, I think I'd prefer faerie conclave

I'll take a monocolor 2/1 for with evasion (!!!) over a 4/1 beater for that requires a clear board, 7 mana, and a counter in hand any day. I'll also feel a lot less shitty if my conclave blows up to a Magma Jet.

 

[ahadabans]

I'm happy with the Izzet manland. Prowess would have been garbage given that you already need 5 mana to activate it. Looting would have been too good I feel.