That Tibalt seems a little nuts.
General Print this Wizards! (So I can put it in my cube)
- Thread starter Chris Taylor
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Chris Taylor
Contributor
Guys, stop making walkers 
They're too hard to comment on
They're too hard to comment on
Lorne seems like a remade Liliana of the Veil in that it makes your opponent sac a guy as 'the good thing,' and the + is kind of weird. It's worded like you only sac a guy if a creature was put into the bin from anywhere already, but you're drawing a card regardless. Even if you just wanted a period after 'sac a creature' it also makes all your removal spells cantrip if you have an otherwise-empty board.
Lim-Dul is a little awkward; I think remove-your-best-things effects should be pretty prohibitive (bitter ordeal, sadistic sacrament, life's finale) in cube, and you should only get a zombie if you remove a dude. I'd do something about his ult, it crushes aggro so hard.
Kelorn kills your opponent way fast for how cheap he is; +/ult kills you faster than sorin markhov; Kelorn is lethal on fifth activation where sorin is on the sixth.
Tibalt is insane. Both + and - are ridic as-worded.
Lim-Dul is a little awkward; I think remove-your-best-things effects should be pretty prohibitive (bitter ordeal, sadistic sacrament, life's finale) in cube, and you should only get a zombie if you remove a dude. I'd do something about his ult, it crushes aggro so hard.
Kelorn kills your opponent way fast for how cheap he is; +/ult kills you faster than sorin markhov; Kelorn is lethal on fifth activation where sorin is on the sixth.
Tibalt is insane. Both + and - are ridic as-worded.
I'm going to restrain myself from making this no better than a back and forth had on salvation:
Lorne:
Yeah totes, he's got a lot of parallels to Lilly3. And you're right on the money, if you don't have a creature, and you've managed to kill one of theirs, the ability resolves and draws you a card. I'll throw in some way to properly breakup the wording and subjugate the clauses correctly. He wants something to have died and he will give you a card, he will give you the ability to put a thing into your graveyard. Lorne's ultimate is very similar to all his other abilities but he no longer requires you to sacrifice anything, just your opponent.
Lim-Dul:
Right again! The last ability is very powerful and I could certainly stand to put an additional little cute limiter on his +1. I don't really mind the idea of a 4 drop being good at dealing with 1cc creatures, but this one might be even pushing it. I really don't care about making the entomb-anyone ability more expensive, cube is a more powerful place for that ability but it's pretty mediocre as a -1 ability on a 4cc permanent that does not + to defend itself. I would consider making his last ability something like -4 destroy each creature with cmc x where x is what I say it is.
Kelorne:
I totes don't mind designing cards that are better than sorin markov. Actually I kinda like sorin because his ability does a lot to mess with combat, I think that the fact that his +1 is often worth a card and 2 life is sorta where he works. A walker that takes 5 activations to kill someone is not that scary to me, combined with the fact that it is +2ing makes me a little more cautious, but you have to remember you are putting yourself in a weird place too. I think the best solution with him (if I wana bend to the will of the forums) is to give him 3 starting hit points and change the befoul to a -3.
Tibalt:
Another child of lily3 and sorta Ajani3. +1 for +2/+0 on an attacker is not incredible. Can we agree on this? It doesn't tick up on turns you don't have creatures, it can't be used defensively and the problem doesn't accumulate and become overwhelming like many walkers that provide persistent board bonuses.
I can see why people are scared of the -1, and the ability does seem great, but ridic (lol I love it when people say that)? Really? Maybe in degenerate formats, but what's the point in talking about those. It is an awful lot like lily's +1 if you have no cards in hand you are up a card, it can also be used to turf a thing you are excited to put into your grave. The thing is, its a -1 on a card with 2 loyalty that has no way of defending itself other than being early. How much play do you think you are getting out of it? The +1 can't be used defensively and boy is ajani's +1 way better than it as a 3mana card that is capable of 5 loyalty on the next turn. I wouldn't mind making it RR or the -1 into a -2 but I feel like I am being conservative simply for the sake of being conservative and thats not how I like to design cardz.
Love more ideas on how to mess with Lim Dul! Does anyone have any better ideas for Tibalt's ultimate?
Lorne:
Yeah totes, he's got a lot of parallels to Lilly3. And you're right on the money, if you don't have a creature, and you've managed to kill one of theirs, the ability resolves and draws you a card. I'll throw in some way to properly breakup the wording and subjugate the clauses correctly. He wants something to have died and he will give you a card, he will give you the ability to put a thing into your graveyard. Lorne's ultimate is very similar to all his other abilities but he no longer requires you to sacrifice anything, just your opponent.
Lim-Dul:
Right again! The last ability is very powerful and I could certainly stand to put an additional little cute limiter on his +1. I don't really mind the idea of a 4 drop being good at dealing with 1cc creatures, but this one might be even pushing it. I really don't care about making the entomb-anyone ability more expensive, cube is a more powerful place for that ability but it's pretty mediocre as a -1 ability on a 4cc permanent that does not + to defend itself. I would consider making his last ability something like -4 destroy each creature with cmc x where x is what I say it is.
Kelorne:
I totes don't mind designing cards that are better than sorin markov. Actually I kinda like sorin because his ability does a lot to mess with combat, I think that the fact that his +1 is often worth a card and 2 life is sorta where he works. A walker that takes 5 activations to kill someone is not that scary to me, combined with the fact that it is +2ing makes me a little more cautious, but you have to remember you are putting yourself in a weird place too. I think the best solution with him (if I wana bend to the will of the forums) is to give him 3 starting hit points and change the befoul to a -3.
Tibalt:
Another child of lily3 and sorta Ajani3. +1 for +2/+0 on an attacker is not incredible. Can we agree on this? It doesn't tick up on turns you don't have creatures, it can't be used defensively and the problem doesn't accumulate and become overwhelming like many walkers that provide persistent board bonuses.
I can see why people are scared of the -1, and the ability does seem great, but ridic (lol I love it when people say that)? Really? Maybe in degenerate formats, but what's the point in talking about those. It is an awful lot like lily's +1 if you have no cards in hand you are up a card, it can also be used to turf a thing you are excited to put into your grave. The thing is, its a -1 on a card with 2 loyalty that has no way of defending itself other than being early. How much play do you think you are getting out of it? The +1 can't be used defensively and boy is ajani's +1 way better than it as a 3mana card that is capable of 5 loyalty on the next turn. I wouldn't mind making it RR or the -1 into a -2 but I feel like I am being conservative simply for the sake of being conservative and thats not how I like to design cardz.
Love more ideas on how to mess with Lim Dul! Does anyone have any better ideas for Tibalt's ultimate?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I'm looking for a baller blue aggro dude that gets offensive results. How do you think this plays:
Latch Seeker 2.0
UU
Spirit
3/1
Unblockable and can't block
Rationale: Latch Seeker sucks. True-Name Nemesis is just to same card +10,000 other things. It seems fair to get the offensive capacity of TNN at 2 mana by taking away everything that makes the card unplayably broken. It gives blue a real 2 mana threat and a real UU card at the same time. Its boring, but its a roleplayer I could really use.
Is there is anything overtly stupid about this design?
Also, though this started in the other thread, I took Chris's idea and settled on this version of a pushed highway robber:
Bloodhunter
1B
Vampire
2/2
Flying, Echo
ETB Drain 2 life
The BB version just out-benchmarked basically everything and I was uncomfortable with combination of immediate impact and beatdown. This version is weaker, but echo does give you a way to kill it without a sac outlet which is not without some utility.
Latch Seeker 2.0
UU
Spirit
3/1
Unblockable and can't block
Rationale: Latch Seeker sucks. True-Name Nemesis is just to same card +10,000 other things. It seems fair to get the offensive capacity of TNN at 2 mana by taking away everything that makes the card unplayably broken. It gives blue a real 2 mana threat and a real UU card at the same time. Its boring, but its a roleplayer I could really use.
Is there is anything overtly stupid about this design?
Also, though this started in the other thread, I took Chris's idea and settled on this version of a pushed highway robber:
Bloodhunter
1B
Vampire
2/2
Flying, Echo
ETB Drain 2 life
The BB version just out-benchmarked basically everything and I was uncomfortable with combination of immediate impact and beatdown. This version is weaker, but echo does give you a way to kill it without a sac outlet which is not without some utility.
Hrm, that sounds wonky. As is, I would interpret it as "Sacrifice a creature if another creature was put into the GY this turn", while I would imagine that you intend it to be "Sacrifice a creature, then draw a card if something was put into the GY". I think it's just a question of moving the comma from before 'draw', to before 'if', provided that is the intended meaning.
Lorne's a really good tackling of a 2cmc walker, though. However, it might need to be BB (also draws parallels to smallpox, like the ult).
Lim-Dul's -X is really interesting. (And just in case you are going to proxy them out, you need an 'a' in the +1)
Kelorn might actually be a bit underpowered imho.
Tibalt is completely busted
EDIT: Didn't realize there was an extra page of comments, so had just seen the raw post, so a bit of overlap/stuff which has already been noted or explained.
A repeatable +2/+0 seems pretty awesome on a two-drop that can do lots of other shit. You get to equip a Darksteel Axe every turn? Power boosts are huge in allowing aggro decks to punch into blockers.
Yeah it's an awful lot like a red haste creature for when you already have a creature and that might kinda have evasion maybe. I like that it can be attacked to death.
BTW Your conversation about that in the chat cast reminded me about the SC principle that the more pressure I apply or the more I threaten to devote myself in a certain direction in a game, the more I feel like I am attacking away their ability to make threatening moves.
More delicious insights plz. You guys are the best.
BTW Your conversation about that in the chat cast reminded me about the SC principle that the more pressure I apply or the more I threaten to devote myself in a certain direction in a game, the more I feel like I am attacking away their ability to make threatening moves.
More delicious insights plz. You guys are the best.
Is there any interesting tension in having Bloodthirst and Haste printed on the same card?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Jason:
I like cards that give me more options. I think it would also be unsatisfying in a very characterful way. Gives you more reasons to play 1cc burn spells too. Like haste and blood thirst is total burn spell encouragement without feeling as wrote as their other attempts at that.
Anyway I totes don't think Tibalt is busted, it's just really good and it's rare you see red card that is such without falling within a couple stereotypes. This card is definitely a red card and it isn't really going out of it's way to break any rules so I'm super dubious about it being busted.
Say it with me: "busted red card"
- feels wrong right?
Anyway umm more cards:
Mold Elemental
Creature - Elemental (U)
Trample
When enters the battlefield destroy target artifact, enchantment or land.
Evoke
4/4
Scavenger's Boon
Instant (U)
Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature and gain 1 life.
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play you may pay to return Scavenger's Boon from your graveyard to your hand.
Guardian Swarm
Creature - Insect (R)
Flash
When Guardian swarm enters the battlefield put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
When Guardian swarm enters the battlefield put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
1/1
(originally was harder to block)
Gaea's Intervention
Sorcery (C)
Return target land card from your graveyard to play, tapped.
Flashback
Planting Roots
Sorcery (R)
Search your library for a forest card and put it into play tapped, then if you payed the kicker cost search your library for a green creature card, reveal it and put it into your hand.
Kicker
I like cards that give me more options. I think it would also be unsatisfying in a very characterful way. Gives you more reasons to play 1cc burn spells too. Like haste and blood thirst is total burn spell encouragement without feeling as wrote as their other attempts at that.
Anyway I totes don't think Tibalt is busted, it's just really good and it's rare you see red card that is such without falling within a couple stereotypes. This card is definitely a red card and it isn't really going out of it's way to break any rules so I'm super dubious about it being busted.
Say it with me: "busted red card"
- feels wrong right?
Anyway umm more cards:
Mold Elemental
Creature - Elemental (U)
Trample
When enters the battlefield destroy target artifact, enchantment or land.
Evoke
4/4
Scavenger's Boon
Instant (U)
Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature and gain 1 life.
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play you may pay
to return Scavenger's Boon from your graveyard to your hand.Guardian Swarm
Creature - Insect (R)
Flash
When Guardian swarm enters the battlefield put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
When Guardian swarm enters the battlefield put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
1/1
(originally was harder to block)
Gaea's Intervention
Sorcery (C)
Return target land card from your graveyard to play, tapped.
Flashback
Planting Roots
Sorcery (R)
Search your library for a forest card and put it into play tapped, then if you payed the kicker cost search your library for a green creature card, reveal it and put it into your hand.
Kicker
It would have to be kind of drastic... card has an ability when it doesn't have a counter (reverse unleash??), can only be played precombat so you're forced to have a pinger/burn, but it's really sweet. Something like that.
I mean, I was just thinking like, a 2/2 Haste for 2 with Bloodthirst 1. I'm sure you could do something much splashier and flashier. Seems Future Sightable.
Do you feel like any of my dumb green cards would make green in your environment more interesting?
How do you make green graveyards more relevant in modern cube?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
How does this guy sound?
Street Tough
Creature - Human Rogue
~ gets +1/+2 as long as you control a nonbasic land
1/1
Yeah it probably makes more sense if you don't control a nonbasic, but that's not the kind of behavior I want to incentiveize.
Street Tough
Creature - Human Rogue
~ gets +1/+2 as long as you control a nonbasic land
1/1
Yeah it probably makes more sense if you don't control a nonbasic, but that's not the kind of behavior I want to incentiveize.
If it's any consolation, were I to push green aggro in my cube I'd probably run multi Skyshroud Elite
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah, but I don't like skyshroud elite since your opponent can play around it to make it useless (Ie 1 power). This is at least kinda a decision on your part.
I'd run multiple experiment one FWIW. They certainly combine well
I'd run multiple experiment one FWIW. They certainly combine well
Chris if you wana print a 2/3 for G that's fine, you don't have to bend over backwards, it's your cube! Just be very aware that that is probably what you are making.
If you want people to have a harder time playing around Skyshrould elite make more ways to bother people's mana. It can become a fun game of whether to turn it off or on or lose your white source when someone forces you to sac a land or is porting your basic source.
If you want people to have a harder time playing around Skyshrould elite make more ways to bother people's mana. It can become a fun game of whether to turn it off or on or lose your white source when someone forces you to sac a land or is porting your basic source.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
True. Really I just don't like skyshroud elite because if it ever really matters in the early game, it's a 1/1 at your opponent's request (most of the time. Some people have the 14 nonbasic draft, but that's less likely unless zach is involved)
Is there a nice middle ground? Street Tough is probably printable. I think it might be a 1/1 some of the time in a cube draft, but if it's as unlikely as you say, maybe it might need a bit of tweaking.
Is there a nice middle ground? Street Tough is probably printable. I think it might be a 1/1 some of the time in a cube draft, but if it's as unlikely as you say, maybe it might need a bit of tweaking.
Dude am I ever usually cutting lands to have enough basics a lot of the time in eric's cube. I also found it happening more often in my skeleton list and I think once I am able to convince samuel to go up to 20 fetches it'll be the same with him too (he is so close guys! He looooves how good the fixing is when I show you one of your guys cube tutors)
So the downside of skyshroud elite is that for the first 2-3 turns of the game it is a 1/1 for G and then it turns into a 2/3. Hmmm I kinda see the problem but I'm not sure how exciting it is to just have a guy that is good with non basics in a freaking cube format, it's really not that interactive of a trick. Don't put too much weight on printable vs me either hon, its like totes not a big deal to me lol.
Angry Ghosts
Creature - Spirit
Flying
When Angry Ghosts enters the battlefield target player loses 1 life.
Whenever a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from play, you may return Angry Ghosts from your graveyard to your hand.
4/4
Could lose an ability of go to 4/3 or go to 3BB I dun ever cur.
So the downside of skyshroud elite is that for the first 2-3 turns of the game it is a 1/1 for G and then it turns into a 2/3. Hmmm I kinda see the problem but I'm not sure how exciting it is to just have a guy that is good with non basics in a freaking cube format, it's really not that interactive of a trick. Don't put too much weight on printable vs me either hon, its like totes not a big deal to me lol.
Angry Ghosts
Creature - Spirit
Flying
When Angry Ghosts enters the battlefield target player loses 1 life.
Whenever a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from play, you may return Angry Ghosts from your graveyard to your hand.
4/4
Could lose an ability of go to 4/3 or go to 3BB I dun ever cur.
Angry Ghosts
Creature - Spirit
Flying
When Angry Ghosts enters the battlefield target player loses 1 life.
Whenever a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from play, you may return Angry Ghosts from your graveyard to your hand.
4/4
Dude this should have evoke.
Evoke