oh noooooes
General The Constructed thread
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
oh noooooes
surely this is the most oppressive thing in this fun and enjoyable format full of fun and enjoyment and not at all getting blown out by bullshit as a matter of course
I must not understand EDH at all, because I never would guess that a card like that was oppressive. Especially considering all the infinite "win the game" combos in the format.
right, but you never use those infinite win combos, you just happen to incidentally have them in your deck and if someone's being a dick you just win at instant speed to demonstrate their poor etiquette ?????
by 'being a dick' i mean trying to win. at a game they're playing. where the aim is to win.
i thought i'd clarify
i thought i'd clarify
in my experience, that card was super super oppressive. comes out on turn 4 or 5 and sets everyone else back at least turn or actually hits a nonland and then ramps the person who played it by N (into shocks or alpha duals too!). and then it gets blinked and reanimated over and over. and then another player plays one, and then another player plays one. the card is pretty much universally hated. i don't mind it as much as some other people but i definitely do not mind it being banned.
i don't know what the format is like when people try to go full on tendrils of agony / hermit druid mode as the groups i've played with don't have access to those cards, but nearly everywhere i've played the majority of the best deck(s) are variants of UGx control/ramp/goodstuff featuring cards like the primordial cycle (the best ones being the blue green and the black ones). we do have some people with relatively fast decks, but control keeps them down. there's a few voltrons that start swinging for lethal on turn 5 or 6, and we had some combo decks. there was an eggs player that would win on turn 3-5 if unimpeded and literally take an hour to combo out. i was in a big game once with no responses and the other players insisted that they may be able to stop him from comboing out, and so i went and played modern and played 5 games until he finally killed me in the same turn. however he only won with the deck like twice because more humane infinite combos generally get ignored by the bad players but everyone would gang up on that.
the deck i've played the most by far is a damia, sage of stone (which started out as maelstrom wanderer, who is a much much stronger general but i like playing black a lot more), and i win most of my games off the back of blinking peregrine drake with deadeye navigator and destroying everyone else's lands with the primordial or acidic slime or something. i've won something like 9/10 of the last big games we've played in the format.
i don't know what the format is like when people try to go full on tendrils of agony / hermit druid mode as the groups i've played with don't have access to those cards, but nearly everywhere i've played the majority of the best deck(s) are variants of UGx control/ramp/goodstuff featuring cards like the primordial cycle (the best ones being the blue green and the black ones). we do have some people with relatively fast decks, but control keeps them down. there's a few voltrons that start swinging for lethal on turn 5 or 6, and we had some combo decks. there was an eggs player that would win on turn 3-5 if unimpeded and literally take an hour to combo out. i was in a big game once with no responses and the other players insisted that they may be able to stop him from comboing out, and so i went and played modern and played 5 games until he finally killed me in the same turn. however he only won with the deck like twice because more humane infinite combos generally get ignored by the bad players but everyone would gang up on that.
the deck i've played the most by far is a damia, sage of stone (which started out as maelstrom wanderer, who is a much much stronger general but i like playing black a lot more), and i win most of my games off the back of blinking peregrine drake with deadeye navigator and destroying everyone else's lands with the primordial or acidic slime or something. i've won something like 9/10 of the last big games we've played in the format.
It was noncreature instead of nonland, so you can hit lands. With the right general, you can blink it easily. It's a repeatable, one sided Armageddon. I haven't played EDH in far too long, but I can see how it could be ridiculously broken.
Incidentally, I have a similar problem in dota where teammates say 'It's only a game, why are you mad that I'm not trying to win'. Of course its a game, but the thing that's good about playing games is trying to win them. Not trying to win a game is like walking a 100m sprint and trying to claim moral high ground because everyone else was trying too hard.
If they want to ban oppressive things, tutors and/or infinite combos should probably be looked at before 'this thing that if I draw my one copy of it and it doesn't get countered and it doesn't get exiled and some flickers and/or reanimation that also don't get countered then it gets abusive'.
Of course, this is a tutor so it gets chucked out anyway in Ideal Cbob EDH World.
Of course, this is a tutor so it gets chucked out anyway in Ideal Cbob EDH World.
the group i play with mostly plays edh to win within the match but not at deckbuilding
we dont intentionally build bad decks, but for example i don't play any free instants just because in a big super casual 5 player game it is easy for people to get distracted and etc and people having to stop and ask for priority every 2 seconds is impossible
we dont intentionally build bad decks, but for example i don't play any free instants just because in a big super casual 5 player game it is easy for people to get distracted and etc and people having to stop and ask for priority every 2 seconds is impossible
If I played EDH I'd have to play that ad nauseum deck so that I could be all 'BUT YOU HAD FUN, RIGHT' as quickly as possible and then go play something else.
Or something just stupid permission/prison deck so noone could play anything, and then I'd elixir to mill everyone to death passively.
Or just build a deck to be a dick and abuse actual edge cases rather than try and build a deck thats actually within the expected be a dick and abuse edge cases range of infinite combo and mass stacked swords on some moron creature and whatever.
I appreciate that some EDH groups don't comprise of mono-idiot. The local magic players here appear to be.
Or something just stupid permission/prison deck so noone could play anything, and then I'd elixir to mill everyone to death passively.
Or just build a deck to be a dick and abuse actual edge cases rather than try and build a deck thats actually within the expected be a dick and abuse edge cases range of infinite combo and mass stacked swords on some moron creature and whatever.
I appreciate that some EDH groups don't comprise of mono-idiot. The local magic players here appear to be.
i wouldnt mind the a lot of the tutors being more often banned, it would make sense.
however the thing about sylvan primordial wasnt that "if i draw my one copy of it"
literally everybody at the table anywhere you went has one. if someone is playing green, they are running it, excluding some really bizarrely focused decks or a player choice to play a worse deck. i play plenty of counterspells in edh, and it is simply not even close to feasible to counter every attempt to play or reanimate or blink a sylvan primordial. it will happen at least 5 times in any given edh game, and probably more. and with the infinite combos you mentioned running around, you have to save your counterspells for the real threats, because the 6/8 reach is not a real threat, its removal and a ramp spell.
however the thing about sylvan primordial wasnt that "if i draw my one copy of it"
literally everybody at the table anywhere you went has one. if someone is playing green, they are running it, excluding some really bizarrely focused decks or a player choice to play a worse deck. i play plenty of counterspells in edh, and it is simply not even close to feasible to counter every attempt to play or reanimate or blink a sylvan primordial. it will happen at least 5 times in any given edh game, and probably more. and with the infinite combos you mentioned running around, you have to save your counterspells for the real threats, because the 6/8 reach is not a real threat, its removal and a ramp spell.
Right, but EDH is 99 card singleton. Going to 20 turns still means two thirds of your deck still hasn't been drawn. Sure with 6 players or whatever, one's going to drop, but everyone has their one of bombs. The tutors that mean that you can reliably get it are clearly the actual problem.
E: and, you know, the problem with most abusive cards for the format that aren't generals. A single copy of an abusive card in your 99 card pile will be a problem one game in three or four, and only then if you draw the things that go with it. Sure you build in redundancy into your deck, but generally abusive things don't have redundancies available, because they're abusive.
Generals are another issue; they should also be banned liberally though.
E: and, you know, the problem with most abusive cards for the format that aren't generals. A single copy of an abusive card in your 99 card pile will be a problem one game in three or four, and only then if you draw the things that go with it. Sure you build in redundancy into your deck, but generally abusive things don't have redundancies available, because they're abusive.
Generals are another issue; they should also be banned liberally though.
So, I mean, Sylvan Primordial was printed with EDH as its intended format. I find it strange that such a card would be banned. Does Wizards not understand the format, and for those of you who play it, was it obvious from the beginning that Primordial was bah-roken?
we have a mix, a lot of the more spikey part of the group morphed into primarily cube players though and i think a big part of that has fatigue w/ cards like sylvan primordial.
i think a big part of the local meta not being dominated by combo decks though is that locally there were decks like my thalia, guardian of thraben deck that specifically just dumped on any sort of combo archetype at all. the "fun police"
we do have the bads: "i don't want to have to discard these great cards" *counterspells howling mine, then passes priority, and dies to infinite combo while tapped out*
they don't really cube with us though
wizards does not understand the format and yes the card was stupid from day 1
there's all the card draw spells and the fact that most people play edh with the partial mulligan rule though. and if 1 player drops it or discards it, another player will reanimate it
edh is way too consistent as is despite the advertised gameplay though
Well ... yeah. That's my number one complaint about it.
And go fun police! Not red enough to include blood moons and/or mana denial though. Good shout with thalia though.
i have to say after thinking about it, the card i would like see gone by far the most is in commander sol ring. mana vault and mana crypt are legal too and probably should go as well but nobody i know owns them despite the vault only being $4 (i really thought this was an expensive card until i just checked)
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Damnit they keep banning cards I get foils of 
I mean Primeval Titan slot pretty well into my cube, but I don't think Sylvan Primordial has the same fate
Kinda the problem with EDH is that the legwork of banning every single tutor is just unwieldly, so you have to rely on people not being dicks to achieve even the basic selling point.
There's also lots of different cards which are only really broken in context with the general. Like, nobody's calling for a curiosity ban, but with niv-mizzet the firemind it instantly kills 2+ people. And he was basically the only choice for a general for a long long time.
Brainstorm is a fine card, but with maelstrom wanderer it removes all the variance from the card, which is super broken.
When sylvan primordial came out, most people were still sore about primeval titan being banned (a card with similar effects on the game where each player took it in turn to amass as many triggers as you could and no other creatures mattered), so most people's reaction was "Well it's way worse than primeval titan, and you can't even get broken stuff like gaea's cradle with it. How busted could it be?"
I feel a little weirded out from the game sometimes, since I don't play it that often. I had a plan to make a deck that would generate lots of mana with Wild Growth and Voyaging Satyr effects, and Derevi came out in the commander precons this year, I'd found the perfect commander for it. But after actually sitting fdown to play with the precon, Derevi is so horribly insane I'm not sure I can play the deck with a good conscience now. Like sure I just want to spend a billion triggers finally making inspired cards not embarrassing, but when you're beating people hand over fist with just leafdrake roost, it might be a little too good.
I mean Primeval Titan slot pretty well into my cube, but I don't think Sylvan Primordial has the same fate
Kinda the problem with EDH is that the legwork of banning every single tutor is just unwieldly, so you have to rely on people not being dicks to achieve even the basic selling point.
There's also lots of different cards which are only really broken in context with the general. Like, nobody's calling for a curiosity ban, but with niv-mizzet the firemind it instantly kills 2+ people. And he was basically the only choice for a
general for a long long time.Brainstorm is a fine card, but with maelstrom wanderer it removes all the variance from the card, which is super broken.
When sylvan primordial came out, most people were still sore about primeval titan being banned (a card with similar effects on the game where each player took it in turn to amass as many triggers as you could and no other creatures mattered), so most people's reaction was "Well it's way worse than primeval titan, and you can't even get broken stuff like gaea's cradle with it. How busted could it be?"
I feel a little weirded out from the game sometimes, since I don't play it that often. I had a plan to make a deck that would generate lots of mana with Wild Growth and Voyaging Satyr effects, and Derevi came out in the commander precons this year, I'd found the perfect commander for it. But after actually sitting fdown to play with the precon, Derevi is so horribly insane I'm not sure I can play the deck with a good conscience now. Like sure I just want to spend a billion triggers finally making inspired cards not embarrassing, but when you're beating people hand over fist with just leafdrake roost, it might be a little too good.
Any card with the phrase 'search your library' is banned, unless the target is restricted to one or more basic lands, or otherwise in this (very short) list of exceptions: blah.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Honestly I think the broken part is the never having to pay general tax (also costing 3 mana. Edric aint' no slouch either.)
Most of the games I played with the unmodified precon didn't have many sweepers, but the fact that one combat she got killed 3 times and I still got my 6 twiddle triggers because I just played her again a few times
I get the idea, but such a giant banlist still seems intrusive on the part of many players. Just look at modern and it's 30 odd cards which have been banned. I still have players to this day that are cry and whine that ponder and preordain aren't legal.
This is one of the great things about cube: you can just silently ban things and people don't even care.
I mean, for any given general, there's already a massive banlist as not-their colours are banned. Make it a rule rather than a banlist per se, and it'd be less intrusive.
That ship has sailed though; if they tried to do it loads of people would cry that it's against the true spirit of digging precisely the cards you need out of your hundred card singleton deck.
That ship has sailed though; if they tried to do it loads of people would cry that it's against the true spirit of digging precisely the cards you need out of your hundred card singleton deck.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah. I think the rules council has kinda given up to a point on this, since most of the banlist decisions are "Yeah nobody can ignore how stupid this thing is" and less trying to actually steer the format toward being healthy and fun.
Maybe this whole "Play with non idiots" is the way to go
My local scene is mostly true spirit of EDH idiots :<
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Mine was, but I just sort of stuck with my "Build a fair deck and preach" strategy