Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Where do you play? I've got a grixis delver list on modo that will take the skaab challenge.
General The Constructed thread
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Need to find room for more burn, not that there's much good burn left.
I hope this is playable
| Planeswalkers (1) 1 Gideon, Ally of Justice Spells (34) 4 Wild Slash 3 Magmatic Insight 4 Dragon Fodder 2 Anticipate 3 Hordeling Outburst 3 Exquisite Firecraft 1 Jeskai Charm 4 Secure the Wastes 2 Bring to Light 4 Treasure Cruise 4 Jeskai Ascendancy | Lands (25) 2 Flooded Strand 2 Windswept Heath 4 Wooded Foothills 4 Polluted Delta 4 Bloodstained Mire 1 Prairie Stream 1 Sunken Hollow 1 Smoldering Marsh 1 Cinder Glade 1 Canopy Vista 1 Island 2 Mountain 1 Plains |
A store here in BC, Magic Stronghold. I prerelease at a more casual store though which is also closer to my house. The Mentor list is on modo, PM me your username and we'll totally play some games.
I hope this is playable v.2
So if you don't have a radiant flames are you just dead?
Tried a mono red list featuring break through the line- every creature is a target pre-tricks. Lost the best burn spells (lightning strike and stoke the flames) so unblockable attempt at face-burn. Fireballing someone every turn with berserker/whisperer is neat, and break gives haste so no creature is a stone dead draw.
Might not need to play outpost siege, but I always like a little insurance. Not a big fan of scab-clan berserker, but maybe I should be.
Tried a mono red list featuring break through the line- every creature is a target pre-tricks. Lost the best burn spells (lightning strike and stoke the flames) so unblockable attempt at face-burn. Fireballing someone every turn with berserker/whisperer is neat, and break gives haste so no creature is a stone dead draw.
Breakthrough Red
| Creatures (24) 3 Zurgo Bellstriker 4 Monastery Swiftspear 4 Abbot of Keral Keep 4 Dragon Whisperer 4 Flamewake Phoenix 3 Lightning Berserker 2 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh Spells (15) 4 Wild Slash 3 Roast 4 Exquisite Firecraft 2 Outpost Siege 2 Break through the Line | Lands (21) 4 Looming Spires 17 Mountain |
Might not need to play outpost siege, but I always like a little insurance. Not a big fan of scab-clan berserker, but maybe I should be.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Help me build a shitty budget Legacy deck. Here is my premise:
Pox is one of my favorite constructed cards, but I don't want to splurge on a playset of Lillianas. Zombardment is one of my favorite Legacy designs, but I don't want to buy dual lands.
My compromise? This is the skeleton:
So, without bombardment, we have blood artist to give reach. Unfortunately, blood artist can't kill creatures by itself, so we are stuck with Carrion Feeder/Viscera Seer to do that. Do I need another outlet? The choices aren't great.
It also can't target creatures, but we have poxes to kill stuff. They even kills out own stuff if we need it to. We loose Lingering Souls for ammo, so we are kinda stuck with Geralf's Messanger, but on the plus side he comes with reach. Without sinkholes and Liliana, the deck doesn't disrupt nearly as well as pox does, but it puts a much faster clock on the opponent.
With no Faithless Looting and Poxes attacking the mana, this list is running more land then similar ones. Maybe it is too much? Is playing this without a set of wastelands futile?
Here are some of the main cards I'm thinking about:
Dark Confidant: Highest CC is 3, seems pretty good. Viscera Seer can even potentially adjust the top card.
Bitterblossom: Produces ammo, can actually block unlike most of the deck. Kinda slow though.
G.Probe: Makes Cabal Therapy a sure thing and gives info. With no fetches in the deck and blood artist, there is plenty of life to spend.
Hymn: Hymn is amazing, but maybe its not the right card here?
Pox is one of my favorite constructed cards, but I don't want to splurge on a playset of Lillianas. Zombardment is one of my favorite Legacy designs, but I don't want to buy dual lands.
My compromise? This is the skeleton:
| Creatures (21) 4 Bloodghast 4 Gravecrawler 4 Carrion Feeder 4 Blood Artist 4 Geralf's Messenger 1 Viscera Seer Not Creatures (17) 4 Cabal Therapy 4 Smallpox 2 Pox 4 Hymn to Tourach 1 Duress 2 Tragic Slip | Land (22) 22 Swamp | Sideboard (15) 2 Pox 3 Duress 1 Nether Void 4 Faerie Macabre/Bojuka Bog/some other grave hate that isn't leyline 2 Perish 2 Rotting Rats 1 Innocent Blood/Tragic Slip/Fleshbag Maurader |
So, without bombardment, we have blood artist to give reach. Unfortunately, blood artist can't kill creatures by itself, so we are stuck with Carrion Feeder/Viscera Seer to do that. Do I need another outlet? The choices aren't great.
It also can't target creatures, but we have poxes to kill stuff. They even kills out own stuff if we need it to. We loose Lingering Souls for ammo, so we are kinda stuck with Geralf's Messanger, but on the plus side he comes with reach. Without sinkholes and Liliana, the deck doesn't disrupt nearly as well as pox does, but it puts a much faster clock on the opponent.
With no Faithless Looting and Poxes attacking the mana, this list is running more land then similar ones. Maybe it is too much? Is playing this without a set of wastelands futile?
Here are some of the main cards I'm thinking about:
Dark Confidant: Highest CC is 3, seems pretty good. Viscera Seer can even potentially adjust the top card.
Bitterblossom: Produces ammo, can actually block unlike most of the deck. Kinda slow though.
G.Probe: Makes Cabal Therapy a sure thing and gives info. With no fetches in the deck and blood artist, there is plenty of life to spend.
Hymn: Hymn is amazing, but maybe its not the right card here?
Cards I'd cut:
You don't really need or want big Pox anymore unless you have a massive boner for doing modulo 3 calculations. Some people play one as a fifth Smallpox but I think that's probably outmoded and a mistake too. 1 Duress feels weird and I'd want IoK if it's just a non-Thoughtseize flex slot. Maybe a Sinkhole? Unmask? 4 Geralf's feels wrong to me but I don't know Zombardment very well.
Sideboard: Nether Void is interesting but if you're including it because you have it, I'd trade it for a Lili or something. Since you're sac-heavy flip lili might work as a replacement, curving discard into dudes into Lili (flashback Therapy, flip, +2) will give you some good value. I'd run 2-3 I think?
There's a few budget splashes(1) for Pox that might be worth checking out. As an aside, you can run fetches+shocks and be slightly suboptimal but if you're not playing Daze we're just talking about a percentage point or two against you. Mox Diamond is also a great way to get a second colour, and lets you t1 Smallpox (or Duress, diamond, therapy) which will win you a few games.
Undiscovered Paradise is a nice 1-of if you're splashing and playing BGhasts. I like Darkblast over Tragic Slip since it dredges and doesn't actually cost you a card on turn one. Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker are good and you want them. Jinxed Idol (or Helm of Possession??) might be a colourless sac outlet that lots of creature decks don't like dealing with.
This would be an awesome Bob deck. It's not where you want Bitterblossom. Probe into Therapy is a cumbersome easy mode, but if you're just getting into Legacy that probably wouldn't hurt. Hymn is perfect, especially without Lilis. Wastelands can't possibly hurt the deck but it'll be fine for FNM or whatever without them. Wasteland Wins Games though so picking some up (ebay and the high-end facebook group are your friends) will give you wins you'd otherwise never get. Even one wasteland will do it but in mono-black I might even run four (with Urborg). Speaking of which - Mishra's Factory or Mutavault maybe?
Terminus is going to wreck you so don't overextend into it, or at least try to be able to sac your field in response. Good luck!
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(1):
B/W: "Holy" or Vaka Pox, runs Hymns and Gerrard's Verdict (also four vindicates)
G/B: Loam Pox, uses LftL and Abrupt Decay
R/B: here i think you'd just splash red for bolts and goblin bombardment frankly, maybe Slaughter Games in the board against combo?
U/B: i've never seen this but i guess it runs 1-3 force of will and sucks
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Is there room for phyrexian tower?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Thoughtseize is fine, I have one in my cube I can borrow anyway. I also have one sinkhole, one wasteland, one Lili. . . I mean I have a cube so I have one of mostly everything except the ABU duals which were sold a while ago. I have a full playset of Mishras, but is making myself vulnerable to wasteland worth it? In regular pox (particularly with loam or cruicible) the answer is obviously yes because you are grinding out, but is it the case in this list with ~20 creatures? Particularly since I want to run wasteland myself, that's a lot of colorless lands banking on drawing an Urborg.
The thing I like best about big pox is that it hacks a large chunk of life off the opponent. In grindy/prison pox that's irrelevant or even dangerous to do, but in this list it significantly speeds up my wincon. It may well be wrong, but it "seems" more right here then in Mishra/Lili/Nether Traitor/Cursed Scroll lists. Does this make sense, or am I just making excuses to play the stupid card?
I really like the idea of Flip Lily, both abilities on the planeswalker side are really relevant and the free zombie can keep crawlers coming back.
It sounds weird, but I guess I am "just getting into legacy". I mean, I played the format when it was called 1.5 and I've kept up on the decks reasonably well, but yeah, my actual gamesmanship is really, really dated. There will be hilarious misplays no matter how well I make the list.
Thanks for your advice, its a lot to chew on!
The thing I like best about big pox is that it hacks a large chunk of life off the opponent. In grindy/prison pox that's irrelevant or even dangerous to do, but in this list it significantly speeds up my wincon. It may well be wrong, but it "seems" more right here then in Mishra/Lili/Nether Traitor/Cursed Scroll lists. Does this make sense, or am I just making excuses to play the stupid card?
I really like the idea of Flip Lily, both abilities on the planeswalker side are really relevant and the free zombie can keep crawlers coming back.
It sounds weird, but I guess I am "just getting into legacy". I mean, I played the format when it was called 1.5 and I've kept up on the decks reasonably well, but yeah, my actual gamesmanship is really, really dated. There will be hilarious misplays no matter how well I make the list.
Thanks for your advice, its a lot to chew on!
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Chris: I don't see why not, I just need to figure which nonbasics to play. I like the idea of wasteland the best because it keeps in theme with "being immune to wasteland", but maybe I'm overrating that quality. If I cut back on Messangers and Pox, I won't need as much black mana I suppose.
Run a one-of granddaddy Pox maybe? It's great and it puts in work but it's too situational and Smallpox is almost always live. The slower Pox lists actually like the big hit more because it translates to fewer turns of swinging in with a 2/2. I think you could drain for six or seven with Blood Artists so that argument at least is a bit weak.
I don't know about Sinkhole without Wastelands, honestly; it's strongest when you use it t2 on the basic they fetched. It's not wrong to be hyper-vigilant about losing to Wasteland but it's on a decline right now and unless you play Lands or RUG a lot I think it's fine to have a couple nonbasics. Maybe up to six - wastelands, phyrexian tower, uhhh Tower of the Magistrate to hedge against equipment maybe? You can't exactly tutor them though so you want versatile nonbasics. Making yourself vulnerable to Wasteland in order to run All Four Factories is probably worth it too, they do a lot of work against Miracles, who I imagine you're weak against. I'd test them out at either 2x or 4x with a singleton Urborg for gravecrawler chains. You'd want 23+ lands though, wasteland often takes a spell slot. Geralf's Messenger as a 4-of precludes some of these more powerful lands though so I'd pick one or the other.
Buy shocklands? Pretty functional, especially in an aggro deck.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I think this deck is pretty happy being wastelanded.
How important is geralf's messenger? Is it just a way to get some reach with a sac outlet?
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Yeah, mostly the speed up the clock and provide reach, but the body is not irrelevant. That said with Lili I'm definitely not running 4. Probably 2. Maybe none. I've got a list in my head at 62 cards, I just have decide if it is close enough to pull the trigger or if I should dig deeper.
I looked into current builds of The Gate (an old-school dark confidant/wasteland
aggro deck) and, after being astonished that they exist, found out they're running Abyssal Persecutor, Jitte, and Sadistic Sacrament in the sideboard. Also one guy for some reason had Mourning in his board, so, y'know, grain of salt.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Here's my favorite legacy siteboard card:
I think sideboards are the most entertaining part of legacy for me.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Here's my favorite legacy siteboard card:
Still not as bad as Karma back in the day. I once played a Peasant deck where Karma was the main win condition through color-screwing my opponent with Contaminated Ground and friends off black sources like Barren Moor. Hilarious
Chris Taylor
Contributor
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
Thanks everyone for feedback. Here's my current idea:
So, its two cards over. I dropped one Bloodghast because without faithless looting I don't need as many cards to discard since its only Lily and Smallpox. 2 might even be enough. I switched in Gatekeeper because the deck needs removal more then it needs resilience. The two thoughtseize shores up my turn 1 and increases my disruption. Discard is my only really defense against truly dumb stuff, so 6 turn one options and 4 hymns is probably where I want to be. I stuck with slip as the mainboard removal spell, but its possible it should be dismember. The main creatures I think I need it to target are Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze, but slip has the advantage of being able to kill a lot of other problematic creatures and doesn't cost life at the downside of sometimes being off. Still not sure about it, but it seems right. The sideboard is a guess, I'm really not sure where this deck is strong or weak yet, perish, duress and nether void are probably locks, pox is probably not needed. I'd really like a rotting rats or two somewhere in this list, but god knows where. Also full sets of confidant and wasteland are quickly taking this out of the "budget' category, but fuck it, if I have those I've just a couple of LotV and a sinkhole away from making any other black noncombo deck for < $100.
| creatures (24) 4 Gravecrawler 4 Carrion Feeder 3 Bloodghast 4 Blood Artist 4 Dark Confidant 3 Liliana, Heretical Healer 2 Gatekeeper of Malakir not creatures (16) 4 Cabal Therapy 4 Hymn to Tourach 2 Thoughtseize 2 Tragic Slip 4 Smallpox land (22) 16 Swamps 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 1 Phyrexian Tower 4 Wasteland sideboard (15) 2 Pox 2 Darkblast 1 Nether Void 3 Duress 3 Faerie Macabre 1 Bojuka Bog 2 Perish 1 Dread of Night |
So, its two cards over. I dropped one Bloodghast because without faithless looting I don't need as many cards to discard since its only Lily and Smallpox. 2 might even be enough. I switched in Gatekeeper because the deck needs removal more then it needs resilience. The two thoughtseize shores up my turn 1 and increases my disruption. Discard is my only really defense against truly dumb stuff, so 6 turn one options and 4 hymns is probably where I want to be. I stuck with slip as the mainboard removal spell, but its possible it should be dismember. The main creatures I think I need it to target are Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze, but slip has the advantage of being able to kill a lot of other problematic creatures and doesn't cost life at the downside of sometimes being off. Still not sure about it, but it seems right. The sideboard is a guess, I'm really not sure where this deck is strong or weak yet, perish, duress and nether void are probably locks, pox is probably not needed. I'd really like a rotting rats or two somewhere in this list, but god knows where. Also full sets of confidant and wasteland are quickly taking this out of the "budget' category, but fuck it, if I have those I've just a couple of LotV and a sinkhole away from making any other black noncombo deck for < $100.
Legacy players tend to like Disfigure as an agnostic kill spell too. I think Murderous Cut is better here though? You can't be sure that Dismember will even kill an Ooze, and it looks pretty sad against goyfs, too. 1-2 Surgical Extraction in the board (maybe over a Faerie Macabre?) will help you against fast combo, especially since you can mull to find it g2 or g3 against glass-cannon combo like Belcher/PSI/Oops.
Another reason to get the playsets of bobs and wastes is that it means you have a path to upgrade your deck years down the line if you want (getting scrublands and building Deadguy Ale, then adding blue into Stoneblade). Also they're cool and fun Magic cards and sometimes you're going to flip Wasteland to bob, take zero, draw a card, stone rain you, kill a guy, swing
I wouldn't worry too much about finalizing the board right now but I think Massacre is an alternative to Dread of Night that hits harder against D&T and Stoneforge Mystics. The free cast is great because you're going to be constrained on mana but Dread of Night is also good, I think it's personal preference. You absolutely want 2 Engineered Plague in the board, it's really powerful in Legacy and gets brought in against all sorts of decks.
Looks awesome and very exciting and fun to play. Good luck!
kill spell too. I think Murderous Cut is better here though? You can't be sure that Dismember will even kill an Ooze, and it looks pretty sad against goyfs, too. 1-2 Surgical Extraction in the board (maybe over a Faerie Macabre?) will help you against fast combo, especially since you can mull to find it g2 or g3 against glass-cannon combo like Belcher/PSI/Oops.Another reason to get the playsets of bobs and wastes is that it means you have a path to upgrade your deck years down the line if you want (getting scrublands and building Deadguy Ale, then adding blue into Stoneblade). Also they're cool and fun Magic cards and sometimes you're going to flip Wasteland to bob, take zero, draw a card, stone rain you, kill a guy, swing
I wouldn't worry too much about finalizing the board right now but I think Massacre is an alternative to Dread of Night that hits harder against D&T and Stoneforge Mystics. The free cast is great because you're going to be constrained on mana but Dread of Night is also good, I think it's personal preference. You absolutely want 2 Engineered Plague in the board, it's really powerful in Legacy and gets brought in against all sorts of decks.
Looks awesome and very exciting and fun to play. Good luck!
Also, one of my favourite sideboards in Legacy belongs to some Belcher lists:
15x Revised Island
the level of commitment it represents to the delicate machinery of your deck is outstanding; iirc one of the guys who started it did so because he wanted to resist his temptation to sideboard during important games
15x Revised Island
the level of commitment it represents to the delicate machinery of your deck is outstanding; iirc one of the guys who started it did so because he wanted to resist his temptation to sideboard during important games
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
This might sound stupid after thinking so hard about this and realizing how good confidant is, but is Grim Haruspex a fit as the draw engine? Rough idea:
Same kill mechanism, but Haruspex keeps cards coming and Liliana/Unearth grab pieces of the engine (blood arist, carrion feeder, haruspex) that are removed or appropriate disruption (fleshbag, mesmeric fiend, fulminator mage). Other targets could be Boneshredder, Chittering Rats, ??? A playset of Haruspex and Unearth cost like $6 combined, so the cost to try it is pretty low, I might as well give it a shot.
Halfway in the Ground
| creatures (30) 4 Carrion Feeder 4 Gravecrawler 3 Rotting Rats 4 Blood Artist 3 Bloodghast 2 Mesmeric Fiend 3 Liliana, Heretical Healer 2 Fleshbag Maurader 4 Grim Haruspex 1 Fulminator Mage not creatures (12) 4 Cabal Therapy 4 Smallpox 4 Unearth land (20) 4 Wasteland 16 Swamp sideboard (15) 15 ??? (0) |
Same kill mechanism, but Haruspex keeps cards coming and Liliana/Unearth grab pieces of the engine (blood arist, carrion feeder, haruspex) that are removed or appropriate disruption (fleshbag, mesmeric fiend, fulminator mage). Other targets could be Boneshredder, Chittering Rats, ??? A playset of Haruspex and Unearth cost like $6 combined, so the cost to try it is pretty low, I might as well give it a shot.