The Penny Pincher Cube (360)

You have a lot to choices there. It's most similar to Snap, but the bounce on that card is better early than the repeatable effect on Strings.

Telling Time is what I'd probably cut for it because I don't think that's a very good card at 2 mana honestly. Impulse digs deeper and unless you have miracles or something where knowing the top card is important, I don't see the benefit. It's barely better than cycle 2.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Telling time is a cantrip to smooth out your early game, I would be more interested in replacing that with another such effect, were I to replace it.

Snap is a better card, so I would have to be persuaded that the power downgrade was justifiable, and would improve decks rather than make them worse.
 
Into the Roil then. That card is super janky on T2. And how many bounce effects do you really need? Or cut a counter.

Hidden Strings plays much better than it reads, trust me on this. If you get it ciphered onto something that you can connect with each turn, it gives you 2-3 mana end of combat for instants/flash creatures. With two bounce lands, it makes mystical teachings free.

It also combos with Jori en, Ruin Diver. Cast one other spell, deal combat damage and cast the cipher. Draw a card.

Anax and Cymede is a lovely target for the cipher because they have first strike, so they do FS damage, you cast hidden strings targeting themselves and all your other dudes during regular combat phase get +1/+1 and trample. This also works with Runechanter's Pike on any creature (not in your cube, I know).

Also, the first turn you play it you get 4 triggers if you can get a guy through. You get the effect off the initial casting and then you get it again off the cipher.

Card is great.
 
Let me just give you an idea of the crazy stuff Hidden Strings can do.

Imagine this board state.

You have a 1 drop in play, a bounce land (off T2 play let's say) with a second land you just dropped. So 3 mana available. Think Twice, Hidden Strings, any 4 drop creature, Remand in hand. Tap both lands, play hidden strings, untap both lands. Cipher onto 1 drop. Tap both lands, play 4 drop creature (you have 4 mana now thanks to bounce land). Swing. Untap both lands. Hold for counter, play if appropriate or Think Twice end of turn.

Assumes your 1 drop can get through obviously, but you technically had access to 9 mana on T3.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Just as a general note about cuts/adds, to make this process more streamlined. There are tons of potential cards I could run in the cube. The question should be less "is this card suitable, is it good, does it have interesting interactions" which gives me very little direction, or focus towards a constantly improving product, as it should be "what specific issue does the cube/deck have currently that <x> card addresses."

I always like to have fringe cards to keep on the radar, that I can add to my sb. That way if I have a specific issue come up (or more likely find myself having to depower blue again /sigh) I'll have some reasonable cards to turn towards. I'll add hidden strings to the sb, for now, as the discussion about both the card itself and the potential cuts has been very helpful.

I would really appreciate some input on white cards though, since I'm not sure at all about this managara->sanctum gargoyle swap.
 
I completely understand. Since I've not played your cube, I don't know where the strengths and weaknesses are so it's hard for me to approach suggestions from that angle.

So let me ask you where you feel your weaknesses are and I can try and make some suggestions. Which Wx decks need the most help?
 
Holy skyrocket Muddle the Mixture! (~$6) I wonder if I have one already. I'm seriously considering putting this together, but I may skip all the cards over $3 or so. (about 10). I don't even hardly draft my normal cube though, I don't know I'd ever find time...

I never really thought I'd want 10 cubes...
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ugh, I just looked at TCG player and it had a giant price spike this month >.<

Evidently its because of a speculative buyout due to the sword unban in modern. I don't mean to rant, but this game just disgusts me sometimes. Muddle is a legitimately great card because you can transmute for the red sweepers. On the plus side, that price can't possibly be sustainable, and it should drop in price abruptly.

Let me know what other cards you are thinking of replacing, and I can brainstorm replacements. When you need a budget edition of your budget format, I just don't know what to say.

Also, sorry in advance for the unbelievable cost of chromatic star (its at a downtick now after a brief $16 spike lol...). Certain niche interactions are supported by the ability to sacrifice without cracking, and I would suggest just going x6 terrarions for that reason.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I completely understand. Since I've not played your cube, I don't know where the strengths and weaknesses are so it's hard for me to approach suggestions from that angle.

So let me ask you where you feel your weaknesses are and I can try and make some suggestions. Which Wx decks need the most help?

Here is the situation. I ran mangara of corondor originally because it looked like a nice general purpose answer that could hit artifacts and enchantments. It slipped my mind that it could hit bouncelands, which would be investigating, until I played against it.

I kept it in because white has historically been the weakest color, and having a disruptive effect of that power level seemed reasonable: after all, its fairly fragile and you need to untap with it. The problem is that in play it feels like a titan, in the sense that you answer it now or you lose, and oftentimes being forced to spend your turn on wasting premium removal to kill a 1/1 feels almost as bad. The kicker is that its a {W}{W} card, and white has a lot of {W}{W} cards already.

Here are the white cards sitting in my sb:



This constitutes cards that I've thought about for various reasons, but didn't quite earn a slot, though I want to keep them in mind.

My concerns right now are:

1. Want to increase lifegain to provide control decks some buffer...but not too much. Maybe have enough of a buff?
2. Don't want to push recursive value graveyard interactions too much, due to the power level they represent. Though I am mostly worried about that in black.
3. Want to be curve conscious, as one of white's historical problems is that it tends to have more 4 and 5 drops
4. Want to be mana cost conscious
5. Don't want to push value creature drafting too much, as that kind of obsoletes spells.

Those are all actually pretty general in nature. The R/W decks seem fine, the G/W decks I feel are a little underdrafted though probably fine, U/W I think is quite strong, though B/W is either an underpowered or underdrafted combination (hard to say). Maybe a full blown white reanimation effect and cut dread return?
 
Ugh, I just looked at TCG player and it had a giant price spike this month >.<

Evidently its because of a speculative buyout due to the sword unban in modern. I don't mean to rant, but this game just disgusts me sometimes. Muddle is a legitimately great card because you can transmute for the red sweepers. On the plus side, that price can't possibly be sustainable, and it should drop in price abruptly.

Let me know what other cards you are thinking of replacing, and I can brainstorm replacements. When you need a budget edition of your budget format, I just don't know what to say.

Also, sorry in advance for the unbelievable cost of chromatic star (its at a downtick now after a brief $16 spike lol...). Certain niche interactions are supported by the ability to sacrifice without cracking, and I would suggest just going x6 terrarions for that reason.

I'd like to have a cube I play at mcdonalds without stressing. Not that cutting $4 and and not $3 fixes the horror of spilling a soda on magic cards, but I figured I'd try to draw a line.


Yeah star went nuts. I missed selling on that one, got one for a quarter a little before. Here's some of the more expensive cards:
Isamaru, Hound of Konda -Easy to replace
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV -Harder, but I never really liked the card
Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni -Hard to replace?
Oona's Prowler -Heir of Falkenrath?
 
Ugh, I just looked at TCG player and it had a giant price spike this month >.<

Evidently its because of a speculative buyout due to the sword unban in modern. I don't mean to rant, but this game just disgusts me sometimes.


Geez. I just spent $1.50/ea for three of them and felt like I overpaid. Nothing is safe from becoming expensive!
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Those all should be fine to replace. You could try reflector mage for grand arbiter, though that might be a bit nuts. Alternatively their is lyev skyknight, which was perfectly serviceable before. Grand arbiter is there as the ultimate familiar, and because whites average CC tends to be higher.

Ink-eyes is a fun card, but not necessary. Just pick something else sweet in black that people would enjoy playing.
 
Sanctum Gargoyle seems fine from what you listed. I'm drawn to Stonecloaker though. It givers you some anti-graveyard and you can rebuy ETB dudes, vanishing guys, etc. And it flies, so beats pretty well.

I adore Dread Return. If I dropped down to one and only one reanimation effect, that would be the card that would survive all the cuts.

If you want to nudge white more towards control/graveyard, there's Karmic Guide ($3.99 on star city games - is that too much?). Is it too strong? I feel like echo keeps the power level low enough. Pro-black is a bummer though.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I feel like karmic guide would feel more at home in a dedicated 2005-2008 rare cube, which wouldn't be a bad idea to build at all. That card is very powerful.

I'll run stonecloaker: enough people have recommended it at this point that I figure it deserves a shot.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
RG: Control Ramp/Power Matters aggro.

This kind of helps flesh out the RBG and RUG decks as well.

R/G Ramp
This is a deck that seeks to abuse several factors unique to the list, and is one of two focused big mana strategies that somewhat overlap. Though it can easily splash {U}, in order to abuse untap effects like snap or frantic search, there are two different strategic focuses to run big mana, one rooted more in green, and the other in blue. Blue based strategies tend to be more about gushing mana, while green based strategies are more interested in sustained large scale mana production over the course of several turns, and are more midrangy. A {B} splash opens up another set of options to help mitigate the impact of top decked rampers. This is another bounceland based strategy.​
Generally, the temptation to run at least some blue or black is going to be too strong, the key components of the deck include:​

A mixture of really explosive untap creatures, that must be answered, or which will just take over the game, coupled with cantriping mana dorks that can act as expendable gain lives. The rangers are really solid role players in a lot of decks, but here they enable interactions where you get to untap your untap, and just go crazy. Rude awakening can serve as either a ramp effect or a kill condition. Tusker has a lot of misc. utility with graveyard and ramp strategies, as well as strategies interested in discarding land.​
Here things can divert a bit, depending on if or what sweepers are run (if any).​


Rolling thunder and starstorm are very good for different reasons. Starstorm is very flexible due to the cycling, while rolling thunder can do obscene things, killing people out of nowhere, or acting as a one sided wrath. In addition, starstorm moves at instant speed, which really opens up some plays.

Lastly we have



Which is a bit less flexible, but serviceable sweeper. The main issue here is that its a straight board wipe, which runs against a strategy of building up ones board with untap creatures.

This isn't bad, however, if you're running black and have lots of cantriping creatures, this is a net gain. In addition, it can benefit a couple cards:




Its also worth noting the "death growth strategy." Basically, get out

Algae Gharial Swarm of Bloodflies

And start directing red or black spot removal at the opposing team. Once you get these creatures past a certain threshold, a single sweeper can clear the way of any blockers, while suddenly growing these threats to giant proportions.

As an alternative, these decks can run the full sweeper assortment coupled with the disposable cantrip creatures, and ramp via bouncelands coupled with



Some of the deck's main engine pieces include



Stormbind is pretty absurd with bouncelands or land searchers already. Mina and Denn both power stormbind, while also supporting a more midrange based approach. Stormbind also provides a way to turn late game mana dork draws into a resource (as does tortured existence if running black, or frantic search/compulsive research if blue).

Ramp targets include:



Another great mana dump is spikeshot elder.

Draw selection includes




Like any ramp deck, killing the rampers is a good strategy, but there is so much strategic space to move around the deck, that this won't always be enough.

R/G Power Matters Aggro
This is an aggressive, aura based deck, that buffs creatures to either achieve evasion, or control the board. Major cards include:



Backed up by



This is basically what happens when you take the aggressive cards from red and green and combine them together. You get early pressure that transitions into a reach plan of evasive attacks or giant goblin hits. Spikeshot elder is sufficiently terrifying with a moldervine cloak.

Another source of reach is stormbind.

In addition, you always have the option:

 
I'd also be curious to hear how Archaeomancer is doing in general. I saw this in the average 360 peasant list and was surprised honestly to see it there. Then I thought more on it and it's basically a spells matter deck gravedigger. And that's sort of interesting. But at what power level is getting a 1/2 stapled to a two-for-one for 2UU just not enough ROI? My cube might be walking a fine line.
 
I'd also be curious to hear how Archaeomancer is doing in general. I saw this in the average 360 peasant list and was surprised honestly to see it there. Then I thought more on it and it's basically a spells matter deck gravedigger. And that's sort of interesting. But at what power level is getting a 1/2 stapled to a two-for-one for 2UU just not enough ROI? My cube might be walking a fine line.


In my experience with playing a friend's peasant Cube, getting Ghostly Flicker and Archaeomancer is an insane value engine. It's slow going, sure, but being able to rebuy Gray Merchant of Asphodels or Fire Imp is pretty legit.
 
I had Ghostly Flicker in but took it out when I tried to tone down ETB/blink. Other than removal density, this has been the hardest thing for me to get right balance wise because it quickly goes degenerate if you have enough value pieces (which I do). Particularly problematic with token producers, but even things like FTK or Avalanche Riders quickly get stupid.

Grillo,
You've found a good balance with blink in Penny Pincher right (and you run Ghostly Flicker and Momentary Blink)? What do you attribute that to primarily?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Blink is an incredibly powerful interaction type, and I would hesitate to ever really claim it balanced. Its always something that I feel I should be conscious of, especially giving the lack of being able to give any project I do to a testing team to professionally try to break it (and even those miss things sometimes). ETB effects can just be so format warping. I do consider flickerwisp a very strong card, probably the strongest single pick in the cube at this point, with the only thing balancing it being that its white (a lot of that has to do with the body, evasion, and ability to disrupt an opponent's mana base). If I were to go back to a high powered format, I would be very nervous about restoration angel. A blink effect attached to an instant speed, large, evasive body is nuts, and you only need instant speed interaction to break it.

That being said, I feel ETBs are at a pretty good spot. A lot of my ETB effects are attached to trash creatures, which helps balance out the spell+threat combination, and the really strong enablers are localized in white, whose generally higher curve makes it somewhat more reasonable. The really strong evasive ETB threats, I feel, should be kept to a minimum. Flickerwisp is fine for the moment (think of it like a mythic pick), pestermite feels reasonable, though marsh flitter has me a little nervous. Its very good at stabilizing to enable reactive plays, but the color that its in probably could use a depowering.

Ghostly flicker, however, is really, really good, to the point where it may approach the level of design mistake. It enables an infinite combo, is a strong value play, can form a hard lock, or be a back breaking reactive play. There are a couple cards that are almost universally underpicked, and those tend to be the really strong reactive plays, as cube tends to create a bias towards asserting pressure, and these reactive plays seem less impressive. Flicker and vines of vastwood are both probably first or second pickable cards i.m.o.

I think that scry land interaction has come up once? These ones are adorable though lol:




Opponent never gets to draw another card. gg



You can really disrupt an opponent's mana development with this, if they are running bouncelands. Its not going to be permanent, but you can really set them back and pull ahead.

The best prison locks though involve voyager staff and auriok salvagers.

Flicker's ceiling is whatever the best ETB effects in your format are, and its floor is whatever the best ETB effects in your format are: pretty good card.

These two cards are also very good:




Mnemonic wall is the stronger of the two, as it can shut down ground offenses, while archaeomancer is a life gain (which is still great). The effect is very good for any sort of control deck, and the absence of it is something I miss from more powered lists, where blue just has snapcaster mage to offer up.

Control very badly wants spellcentric recursive elements to make sure it has answer density.
 
Thanks for that detailed explanation.

You bring up a great point about control wanting recursive spell mechanics just in general. Because there's never enough removal for one (or it seems that way during the game anyway), and two, sorcery/instants being one-time effects (versus ongoing effects for other permanents - over time this matters). It's part of why I like Black Sun's Zenith (because there's a chance you'll get to see it again - free shuffle effects are cool too). I suppose also the abundance of cards that provide a two for one attached to something that sticks around, spell effects just have to do a whole lot these days. I'm definitely going to test Archaeomancer though. Gravedigger was surprisingly relevant, and I think there is a parallel between the two, though I could be wrong here.

With respect to blink, yeah I hear you. Resto Angel is a card I think is awesome mechanically but I finally had to cut it because it's simply too good. Not just in the ETB abuse deck (where it's absurd), but just as a splashable value piece that goes in every Wx deck in existence. Even if all you do with it is flash it in and kill an attacker then swing for 3 next turn, it's still doing too much for 3W. You could give it vanishing 3 and it would still be worth more than 3W. The final straw for me was when I saw it in a friend's deck that had nothing to do with blink and he won a game with it, flashing it in to kill something and effectively changing the entire board state. Something about that just annoyed me because it made me realize how auto-draft the card was.

Galepowder Mage is super janky by comparison, but turns out it's exactly what I want. Sort of barely hitting curve but not useless on it's own either (being able to kill opponent's tokens or just remove a blocker), and it's obviously very good in a deck built to abuse the repeatable flicker, so it feels like it has a high ceiling if you work to unlock it's potential.
 
Blink is an incredibly powerful interaction type, and I would hesitate to ever really claim it balanced.
...

Flicker's ceiling is whatever the best ETB effects in your format are, and its floor is whatever the best ETB effects in your format are: pretty good card.
...

Honestly, I feel like these two sentences are single-handedly the best descriptors for why blink effects are among the most ridiculous in Cube. Especially in my Peasant Cube (which I really need to update on CT and then get my Blog going...), we tend to only have between four and six drafters, so everyone goes boring midrange-value decks and the one guy who gets the [card]Archaeomancer[/c]/Ghostly Flicker engine going is like 80% favored to win his matches.

I feel like there are three schools of thought about how to fix this:

1) Remove the threat entirely and just remove either one of the offenders (or even both!)
2) Make the other spells that interact with the combo value cards weaker or more linear so their usefulness is less universal
3) Fight fire with fire and add additional ways of removing the combo from play (removal/graveyard hate)
a) Break singleton and add more copies of the combo to the Cube in an effort to reverse pyschology the drafters (e.g. while they're grabbing the engine pieces, I'll just grab the spells that they want to gain value out of.)

Personally, I think cutting the offenders and putting in less powerful versions is the correct choice for my group. Instead of Archaeomancer, I'll throw in a Scrivener.
 
There's a 5th way, and it's the one the power max crowd uses: push aggro harder.

We are talking about a 1/2 creature that costs 2UU and a 2U spell that does nothing but flicker stuff you own. This isn't exactly a strategy that is going to win the game by T5 (or T7 for that matter). Not discounting the power of said engine - depending on the power of your cube it could be utterly broken. But if you have an aggro presence, it's the ultimate equalizer because it prevents value-durdle decks from dominating.

Now, I'm a durdler and so is my group. So I'm not really on Team Aggro, I just wanted to point that there was a 5th option.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, I don't think downgrading Archaeomancer to scrivener is the answer either. The culprit is probably the power level of the ETBs coupled with blink effects, making your midrange strategies a bit broken.

To quote:

I have skimmed that thread, and I got the impression that you want to make midrange more interesting? From making custom cards and testing, one thing I've found is that when you remove the "pure value" option from midrange, its forced to fit in the gaps between aggro and control in a more natural way (R/G or G/W stompy midrange vs G/U/x grindy midrange, etc.) When you can just take one card bombs, you don't have to make that speed choice. Everything is good throughout the curve and your opponent has to deal with/fall behind dealing with each card.

Control under contemporary mtg design has a lot of obstacles: recursive threats, conditional removal, ETB threats that make pure spells look bad. The reason why spell recursion is so important is that its often the only way control can keep pace with hyper efficient threats that often either negate the effects of removal, or represent a 2 for 1 exchange with control's removal pieces.

Recursive cards like these





Are a lot more powerful than either archaeomancer or mnemonic wall, because chaining ETBs while asserting pressure is just so good. Tempo + card advantage.

The really simple solution here is to just cut ghostly flicker. The more complex one is to make adjustments to other parts of your cube. Its a fragile combo that should be susceptible to removal, aggressive decks should be able to close the window it has to be effective, or maybe your ETB midrange effects need to be looked at.

For reference, its not something people actively look to assemble here, unless they are trying to draft actual familiar combo.
 
Have you ever considered Gemini Engine? It seems like a potential intersection card for metalcraft, heroic (double your pump spells without going into full Precursor Golem level brokenness), and sac outlets. The main downside is that it seems really bad on defense, which might be a dealbreaker, even in a lower power level environment.

If I ever do custom cards, a 4 mana version as a 2/3 or something similar seems pretty sweet.
 
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