Sets Battle for Zendikar Spoilers

[Grillo_Parlante]

If your goal is to buff the team, and you cant cast her on three (e.g she isn't in hand) it becomes much harder to get her going due to blockers and removal, though the flying helps in that department.

Though I think she is going to be more a card you leverage the perceived pressure from, which I like.

She's a fine card, but slow anthems like these have their flaws, which is fine for balance purposes. Like most people have said curse is a bit over the top, and I like this quite a bit better than that card.

 

[ahadabans]

I have the same problem Skrap has. All my black 1BB cards are supporting specific themes. And I like them all in the role I put them in. So for this to make it, it has to replace a 2B card, and so there's a small tradeoff there. I need to think about this.

 

[blacksmithy]

So what are people planning to cut for Drana? I like her, but I'm having the same problem as Skrap—black threes are stacked now!
(Although I'm also running 5-drop Drana so I don't feel as pressured to fit in the new one.)

 

[Lucre]

Guys why are you all so down on poor endless one? He's like a way better mana sink than we are used to and it encourages players to play better. It's a card that will fit into most decks and privilege ones that are usually very awkward or boring.

Drana is another example of how this set has fucked up the colour wheel lol

 

[ahadabans]

So what are people planning to cut for Drana? I like her, but I'm having the same problem as Skrap—black threes are stacked now!
(Although I'm also running 5-drop Drana so I don't feel as pressured to fit in the new one.)

I'm not sure I'm playing New Drana yet. I like the tie in with +1/+1 and the black anthem effect for aggro. But I don't like this better than what I'm running. So it might be a pass for me initially. Certainly a good card though, especially with heavy token support.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I've got



And of those, I think Mardu Strike Chef is the least necessary.

 

[Aoret]

I think for most people, Strike Leader is the cut. I recently doubled up on vengevines for this weird Dashvine archetype I'm trying out, so I don't think he's the cut for me. My list looks almost identical to CT's except I'm running herald of torment and not Graveblade Marauder and Pitiless Horde instead of Vampire Nighthawk (the former because I don't like the idea of black decks sitting back behind Graveblade as a wall and the latter because I wanted to tie BW life stuff into enchantments, as well as aforementioned loose dash bullshit)

I think the cards that are impossible to cut (assuming typical riptide list) are Flip Lili, Xathrid necro, and fleshbag. Flesh Carver is pretty sweet too. The others I can see making arguments for cutting.

 

[ahadabans]

I run most of those too (except mardu and graveblade and the walker obviously). I also run hypnotic specter and stinkweed imp. I like Hippie and don't want to cut that. It's iconic, unique in it's effect and representative of what my cube stands for (it's a retro cube after all). Imp is critical for the self mill theme.

Maybe I cut Xathrid Necromancer for it, but that card support humans and sacrifice so I'm just making a power upgrade if I do that. It all feels wrong to me.

 

[blacksmithy]

Everyone really likes Fleshbag Marauder! What have been your experiences with him that have earned him such a high spot?
I for one am a much bigger fan of Mardu Strike Leader than I probably should be, and new Drana probably isn't making it into my cube.

 

[ahadabans]

I like Fleshbag Marauder. It's a zombie and plays really well with black's recursive creature theme (which is the primary black creature mechanic in my cube - I do not support traditional black aggro). It is high variance though (as all edicts can be), which is especially true at 3 mana. But since taking a bit of steam out of the token/swarm support, I feel like it's rarely subpar. But I can see why some would choose not to run it. It's a good support card but nothing that is irreplaceable.

 

[blacksmithy]

Hmm. I do like me some Zombie Warriors. Maybe I'll try Fleshbag in place of Sibsig Muckdraggers (who sadly did not get a test run in during our last Cube session due to not being drawn).
Still wary of having too many 3-drops though.

 

[ahadabans]

The black 3 spot is ridiculously stacked. I do not begrudge anyone who can't find room for Fleshbag. He is cool though and does good work in a lot of decks.

 

[blacksmithy]

Sorry for the derail. Here's a new question: What Retreats (if any) do y'all plan to run, and why?
Personally, I like the blue one a lot, and am considering the red, green, and black retreats as well.
Someone mentioned that KotR is really funny with the blue one, and I want to live that dream, but I also dig the Thassa/Derevi modal effect a lot. Control decks could use fetches to prevent the enemy from attacking, or vice versa with aggro decks, there's mana dork interactions (Grand Architect for example), you can mess with Pain Seer... Or worst case you get to scry 1. Not a bad deal.

 

[ahadabans]

The blue one is the only one I'm currently considering. It can be used offensively and defensively, and it ties in nicely with mana elves (could be super explosive in the right build). Scry 1 is a perfectly acceptable alternate mode for when I can't take full advantage of the tap/untap. All for 3 mana on a hard to remove permanent type that is splashable? Seems pretty awesome honestly. And unlike black 3 drops, I personally feel like there is more play with the blue 3 slot.

EDIT: This may replace Thassa for me as that card is hard to make a creature and the blue retreat will likely have more impact (talking ACS). I already dropped Master of Waves, so my blue devotion support is already pretty questionable at this point.

EDIT 2: Using the tap ability defensively requires you crack your fetch on your opponent's turn, which is probably pretty bogus most of the time unless you have a ton of instants or whatever. So I overvalued that option in my original reply above.

 

[Lucre]

Chris's cube is already too 3 heavy, if this old star-dreamer is to be believed.

3's are pretty rough because they are kinda awkward to play around (having two 3s you want to cast in your hand is totes awkz) and they are often colour heavy in their cost. The worst part is that the jump from a 2 to a 3cc spell is not always that much of a gain in value, where as the jump to 4 is usually totes huge.

 

[CML]

i dont like either marauder, nor nighthawk nor strike leader

i nominate geralf's messenger, ophiomancer, and herald of torment as interesting options

 

[Lucre]

I think black decks that want to go later in the game really need a nighthawk around if we are gonna game with all these can't block (or are horrible blockers) black dorks and spells who's main value comes at the cost of life.

 

[ahadabans]

Herald of Torment is a card I've never given a fair shake. Maybe I should slot it in as a 5 drop? Ophiomancer though is just a really obnoxious card. Infinite death touch tokens is not something I want in my meta. Game stalls are already prevalent enough. That card is just way too pushed (it even has 2 toughness to add insult to injury).

 

[ahadabans]

I think black decks that want to go later in the game really need a nighthawk around if we are gonna game with all these can't block (or are horrible blockers) black dorks and spells who's main value comes at the cost of life.

This is why I can't bring myself to cut it. It has next to zero synergy but it often plays a key role during matches due to that lifelink (and sometimes the deathtouch). From a purely synergy driven philosophy, it's an easy card to overlook. But this is a card I don't think you should evaluate in that way personally.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Herald of Torment is a card I've never given a fair shake. Maybe I should slot it in as a 5 drop? Ophiomancer though is just a really obnoxious card. Infinite death touch tokens is not something I want in my meta. Game stalls are already prevalent enough. That card is just way too pushed (it even has 2 toughness to add insult to injury).

Except it doesn't make infinite deathtouch tokens. It makes one, and then poses the question to your opponent: "Are you going to run your team into this board state and lose a guy each turn, or are you going to deal with the Ophiomancer first?" The card is also plays really well (comparable to Gravecrawler) with sacrifice outlets like Smokestack and Carrion Crawler. It really hasn't been that obnoxious in my experience.

My black three-drops of choice are



Of those Reaper, Ophiomancer, and all of the noncreatures aren't going anywhere. Probably Nighthawk as well, as I like the evasive lifelink.

 

[Lucre]

Why do you think reaper is such a keeper?

 

[ahadabans]

Ophiomancer is an automatic 2 for 1 unless you use a sweeper effect. It really hurts aggressive strategies and has minimal opportunity cost since it's 3 power over two creatures for 3 mana (one of which has death touch). And every deck with a swamp can play it.

What do you gain running it? More token support (is that needed)? More support for Stax (is that needed)?

IMO, it's a power card and nothing more. It only improves strategies that are already plenty good enough and it hurts a lot of other strategies unnecessarily. This is one of those NWO cards that looks sexy and tempting but it's actually like cocaine. Gives you a great high but gets you addicted to never ending power creep and ends up doing more harm than good in the long run. Just say "no" to NWO drugs peeps.

 

[Lucre]

Don't half of our creatures provide some sort of card advantage value or some way of bypassing issues of removal or blocking? I guess that card is "too good" against decks that exclusively play 2/1 creatures that cost you nothing but I also kinda expect those decks to have the odd arc lightning or frenzied goblin or like be good enough to win through the odd two for one or obstinate baloth which is honestly worth a bazillion 2/1 attackers most if the time.

Anyway why are we talking about snake charmer on our battle discussion. Cut down on 3s, if your black decks or control decks are having trouble moving into late game keep in snake charmer, if not mess around With other options

 

[Eric Chan]

I'm with Lucas - I can't see myself cutting Vampire Nighthawk anytime soon. He's another one of those guys in the category of "very strong card that goes in a lot of decks" without crossing over into oppressive/unfun territory, and there tends to be so many life payment spells in black that this little guy ends up putting in a lot of good work.

Since cutting all the Gravecrawlers, I've finally ditched Fleshbag Marauder and some of the other questionable zombies, too. He's fine but unexciting unless you really need a tribal package to help you recast your Gravecrawlers, and even in that scenario he's a pretty narrow card come draft time. Bloodsoaked Champions are where it's at, yo.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Why do you think reaper is such a keeper?

Because I run a dedicated zombie theme, and this is one of the three lords in my cube. I like how the zombie lords I run are all decent on their own (well, Diregraf Captain is kinda iffy, but it's still a deathtouch body).

Ophiomancer is an automatic 2 for 1 unless you use a sweeper effect. It really hurts aggressive strategies and has minimal opportunity cost since it's 3 power over two creatures for 3 mana (one of which has death touch). And every deck with a swamp can play it.

What do you gain running it? More token support (is that needed)? More support for Stax (is that needed)?

IMO, it's a power card and nothing more. It only improves strategies that are already plenty good enough and it hurts a lot of other strategies unnecessarily. This is one of those NWO cards that looks sexy and tempting but it's actually like cocaine. Gives you a great high but gets you addicted to never ending power creep and ends up doing more harm than good in the long run. Just say "no" to NWO drugs peeps.

It's really not as destructive as you make it out to be in my experience. #1 Yes, those strategie need options that spit out multiple or recurring bodies, Gravecrawler alone is not going to do the trick. #2 Flyers go right over the snake. #3 Ophiomancer is really, really bad at attacking, so without further presence, your opponent has a lot of time to solve the puzzle. #4 I have won games by removing the snake tokens on critical turns and just powering through the Ophiomancer's player's defenses (because Ophiomancer itself is a really poor defensive body). #5 There are non-sweeper ways that deal with this without the card disadvantage in my cube, like Firebolt, Jilt, Skinrender, etc.

Obviously YMMV, but I have never viewed this card as a problem in my environment.