General CBS
- Thread starter James Stevenson
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Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Hahaha, I was thinking the exact same thing
Is this a Lucas card?
You're right, though my original train of thought was a bit different. In any case, my brainstorm right now looks terrible.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
So... Any of you from the southeast? Seems you're largely out of l2 and l3 judges for a while?
strike?
labour politics in Magic? we should be so lucky
(i'm amazed wizards doesn't shit on their players more and more frequently tbh, it seems to work really well, but in this case it's just such a bad idea b/c they're 'making an example' of their most dedicated fans, who STOP playing Magic to help other people do it more fairly)
like, the obligation that "if you come across information like this, you should immediately report it to Wizards" is, like, so clearly out of sync with all prior messaging and so narc-y. I think that this is cartoonishly bad handling of a minor thing, that the broader Magic community don't know any better (or don't expect it), and that trying to get dem nerdz to care about copyright violations during spoiler season is sysiphean at best. i'm not a judge, it's late and i'm being hyperbolic, but imo this is Crackstyle shit where the insular Magicians think it's awful and nobody else actually cares
Barf. It makes me feel bad for my plans to attend the OGW prerelease, but I just don't think I can stand to miss it.
People are getting excited about their fucking product and wizards is talking like they've been robbed at gunpoint.
People are getting excited about their fucking product and wizards is talking like they've been robbed at gunpoint.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
To be fair, they kinda have. Someone did steal their intellectual property, which is just as bad as stealing actual physical property. I don't mind them going after leaks, they have every right to defend that property. The lashing out at seemingly innocent (?) bystanders this time is pretty shocking. Thing is, we only got the judges' side of the story, and of course they're going to say they are innocent. Wizards is notoriously stingy with information regarding bans, but for all we know they did uncover a judge-leaks-ring (or whatever you would call it) and this has been going on for a while now without anyone of that group speaking up. I don't know, it's difficult to (correctly) pass judgment without the full facts on the table.
Legally, the artists are the only ones who have put meaningful intellectual property on the front side of a magic card. The artists already got their stipend, however, and that property is hasbro's now.
People are going gaga for the *game*, which is fully, legally pilferable as long as you don't use the card backs, the word "tap", a handful of copyrighted proper nouns, etc. This is a League of Legends style game where the more people are talking about it and playing it, the better the product will sell. Even someone who has never bought a card in their life and only ever prints proxies will end up contributing to Hasbro's bottom line if that player plays with other people who end up having a fun time and thus increase their positive desire and attachment for the main, convenient, branded product that doesn't require hours of printing and glueing.
People are going gaga for the *game*, which is fully, legally pilferable as long as you don't use the card backs, the word "tap", a handful of copyrighted proper nouns, etc. This is a League of Legends style game where the more people are talking about it and playing it, the better the product will sell. Even someone who has never bought a card in their life and only ever prints proxies will end up contributing to Hasbro's bottom line if that player plays with other people who end up having a fun time and thus increase their positive desire and attachment for the main, convenient, branded product that doesn't require hours of printing and glueing.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I don't think you're being entirely fair to Wizards there. Putting together a set that drafts well, interacts well with various constructed formats, tells a cool story, etc, etc, costs much, much more effort than just putting some art on a sticker. Also, even it was indeed really easy and wouldn't cost much intellectual effort, it is still their intellectual property. The amount of effort put into that doesn't matter one bit. It's theirs, and it's theirs to share. Theft is theft, and it's not as if the thief can appeal to some high moral ground because Wizards is wronging the world. This isn't information that had to get out because laws were being broken, people were being abused, and kittens were being put through a meat grinder. It's just theft, which is still illegal and should be frowned upon last time I checked.
No I mean, literally I can copy magic, legally, as long as I file a few important serial numbers off. It is not theft, it's just rude.
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/2ndt3i/how_does_one_copyright_a_board_game/
TLDR You can copyright your rules booklet and your artwork, that's about it.
Hex TCG has in large part succeeded at copying Magic with very few twists, but Hasbro attempted to crush them by dint of the time and expense of lawsuits that, ultimately, failed to kill Hex. If you want to play Magic online and MTGO is awful for you, you could do worse than playing Hex.
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/2ndt3i/how_does_one_copyright_a_board_game/
TLDR You can copyright your rules booklet and your artwork, that's about it.
Hex TCG has in large part succeeded at copying Magic with very few twists, but Hasbro attempted to crush them by dint of the time and expense of lawsuits that, ultimately, failed to kill Hex. If you want to play Magic online and MTGO is awful for you, you could do worse than playing Hex.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Wow... That was a disheartening read. Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with the leak. Spreading that Wastes and Kozilek art is still a violation of... I wanted to say copyright, but, well, something.
No. It's not. It's really, really, not. And it's dangerous to imply that they are.
I will agree that these leaks are morally wrong, that they are bad for the magic community, that they have cost wotc money, and caused damage to wotc. But to say it is as bad as stealing actual physical property is ignorant at best, and maliciously dishonest at worst.
The act of theft is an act of taking away. It means that you have removed something from someone else's possessions.
Wizards has not simply lost these cards. They have not lost the ability to print and sell them, the cards have not been removed from the designers' brains, they have not been removed from the company computers. The leakers did not take take WotC's profits and put it into their own pockets. The leakers have committed a crime, and did something wrong, and they have benefited from WotC's misfortune. But they have not stolen. It is not the same thing, and you should not equate the two crimes just because both cost someone capital.
Copying information is not theft. Violating intellectual property is probably usually not theft, and certainly not in this case.
If someone pays you $20 to go break someone's window, that's vandalism, not theft. Even though you gained something where the victim lost. And if the victim goes telling people someone stole the window, the person is lying.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
You can probably tell I'm not a fan of thieves. When I said it's just as bad, I certainly meant they are morally equally despicable. I wasn't referring to the damages or to the actual loss of (physical) items. When you have worked hard, as Wizards employees undoubtedly have, to create a product, and you have a fantastic way to unveil your final product cooked up, and suddenly all of that (or at least most of that) is taken away from you because someone thinks it's okay to leak a card, you will feel just as crushed as when you come home and your TV is no longer there. What was stolen from them is the opportunity to unveil the set to the public on their own conditions and thereby create hype at a moment where that hype will lead up to great sales, which arguably means potential income was stolen. But fine, let's call it intellectual vandalism if that is semantically more pleasing to you.
PS Yes, I realize I'm kinda hypocritical here, because I still watch these leaks to see what the new set is going to be like.
PS Yes, I realize I'm kinda hypocritical here, because I still watch these leaks to see what the new set is going to be like.
I don't know who said it, but I think this incident is more akin to stealing someones baby announcement. It's a total dick thing to do, but we can't really know how much of value is lost, the cards were going to be announced anyway, and most if not all of the loss is symbolic hype for a product we are probably going to appreciate (and buy) anyway. Wizards are grossly overacting (link curtesy of anotak) by ostracising not only the original gossipy bitch, but also the friend who brought the news, and innocent bystanders that happened to be in the same room when the gossipy bitch started gossiping. We get that Wizards feels hurt, but Wizards reaction is not logical nor fair. At least this is what it looks like to me.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Lawyer here, who has done only the most superficial of skimming of the topic.
From what I can tell nothing has actually been filed against any of the individuals involved, so legal definitions don't appear to be terribly relevant.
To clarify though, in copyright actions, the prohibited use of works would be treated as an infringement of an exclusive right. In this case, an infringement of the right to distribute. Obviously, infringement is contemplated as being separate from theft. The legal remedies WOTC has at their disposal range from getting a court ordered injunction, fines, to jail time (unlikely). I'm guessing, given how minor the infraction appears to be, they are opting out of pursing costly legal action.
As for the bans themselves, in the legal profession we have an ethical duty to rat out anyone we know is violating our codes of ethical conduct (how often that actually happens....) or face disciplinary action before the state ARDC. This is contemplated as a mechanism to prevent people from simply looking the other way, and enabling unethical behavior to continue.
From what it looks like, WOTC is declining to pursue legal action, and taking the most light-handed approach they can: invoking a series of bans in accordance with whatever DCI rules allows them to do. I'm sure the fact that these were judges (authority figures within the game's structure) played a factor in WOTC's response.
It is funny that the community seems to be viewing WOTC as the ogre here, and not the people who were doing stupid things like infringing someones copyright.
From what I can tell nothing has actually been filed against any of the individuals involved, so legal definitions don't appear to be terribly relevant.
To clarify though, in copyright actions, the prohibited use of works would be treated as an infringement of an exclusive right. In this case, an infringement of the right to distribute. Obviously, infringement is contemplated as being separate from theft. The legal remedies WOTC has at their disposal range from getting a court ordered injunction, fines, to jail time (unlikely). I'm guessing, given how minor the infraction appears to be, they are opting out of pursing costly legal action.
As for the bans themselves, in the legal profession we have an ethical duty to rat out anyone we know is violating our codes of ethical conduct (how often that actually happens....) or face disciplinary action before the state ARDC. This is contemplated as a mechanism to prevent people from simply looking the other way, and enabling unethical behavior to continue.
From what it looks like, WOTC is declining to pursue legal action, and taking the most light-handed approach they can: invoking a series of bans in accordance with whatever DCI rules allows them to do. I'm sure the fact that these were judges (authority figures within the game's structure) played a factor in WOTC's response.
It is funny that the community seems to be viewing WOTC as the ogre here, and not the people who were doing stupid things like infringing someones copyright.
I don't view WOTC as the ogre here, but I think part of their job is community management. I haven't followed the details of this much (read: at all), but I assume they are within their rights to whatever their reactions are. However, they can do themselves further financial damage by alienating their audience.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Yes, exactly that Grillo, thanks for putting it in nice words.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
The objection seems to be that anyone who was remotely associated with the leakers, by virtue of just being inactive in the same FB group, was also tarred with the same brush. They also haven't been fully transparent about their reasoning even after the update today, and the people who were banned weren't questioned before the punishment was meted out, so it looks like they cast a wide net without caring about collateral damage.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Isnt that a childrens book?