Card/Deck Counterspells

[CML]

In the beginning Richard Garfield created Magic, and Richard Garfield created terrible creatures and awesome counterspells. The design success of NWO has been to bring the creature into parity with the non-creature, but -- when you see Standard decks from this season and last season that are nearly 100 percent permanents, and when you consider the extraordinary design success of Cavern of Souls -- you might think things have gone too far. Oddly enough, the Standard format has adapted by running nearly creatureless decks as well, with maybe only a single Aetherling as a win-condition, if that -- and this kind of control deck, a far cry from JTMS decks of a few years ago or Faeries decks a couple years before that, is a throwback to an even weirder extreme.

"Yes means no, and no means Annul."

Anyway, one of the things that sucks about other people's Cubes (especially the holiday cube, a hypoxic, hydrocephalic abortion choking on its own umbilicus) is how interaction is horribly limited. I've talked about how Cubes bias threats over answers, then overcorrect for that, etc. creating game states where the binary "does he have a Wrath?" determines the winner. Jason and I have bucked this trend by building Cubes where aggro can beat a Wrath, increasing the playability of spot removal (as well as its density), adding back in some sweeper effects, and creating a complex web of checks and balances that is more like the healthier Standard formats of a year or two ago, if not Modern or Legacy.

The biggest thing that's missing from this paradigm is an instant-speed control deck. Control mirrors in Constructed are tough and grindy and skill-intensive and interactive (at least when both players hit their land drops) and I want to port that experience into Cube. How?

It's pretty tough to build "straight Control" in any conventional Limited format (excepting M14, see http://riptidelab.com/take-it-part-one/ and http://riptidelab.com/take-it-part-two/) as the card pool tends to skew towards a different kind of deck; this is similar to the difficulty in building a "RUG Delver" deck in Cube, as the cards, principally counterspells, simply aren't there. However! The kinds of counters with flexibility in Cube -- Counterspell and Cryptic Command, for example, rather than RUG's Daze -- are the ones that could slot painlessly in a control deck. Not only would these counters go into several different kinds of blue decks, they'd also be not great against aggro, help curb the power of midrange, and bring about more interesting control mirrors in Cube, while the combo / synergy decks like Reanimator are resilient enough that it won't be like the Modo Cube, where "does he have a Wrath?" turns into "does he have a Counterspell?"

Ergo I wanted to add more counters to my Cube. This also solves the problem of "what do we do with Blue," which was a major headache over here.

After a quick magiccards.info search I compiled the following list:

IN

force spike
spell pierce
spell snare
mana leak
memory lapse
miscalculation
remand
4 rune snag -- hooray
counterspell
complicate
forbid
glen elendra archmage
cryptic command
condescend
force of will

OTHERS

disrupt -- nobody ever took it when i slotted it in, but it might be worth another try
dissipate -- solid but unexciting, U has a million 3-CMC cards already
dissolve -- so i'd rather run this over dissipate
hinder -- and this just seems like a cooler dissipate, too. maybe run one of dissipate, dissolve, hinder
dimir charm -- anyone tried this? it's probably not good enough to justify the tough cost, but, who knows, maybe it's a lot of fun
dromar’s charm -- see above
exclude -- a reasonable inclusion
foil -- for reanimator support, though likely just awful
izzet charm -- gotta throw this back in
muddle the mixture / perplex -- any one of the more combo-oriented cubes try these?
mystic snake / plasm capture -- nah
negate / essence scatter -- solid if unexciting
overrule -- CT, this is the X counterspell you've been looking for (but it's probably severely underpowered)
sage’s dousing -- not sure I have enough wizards

suffocating blast / voidslime / counterflux / absorb / undermine / punish ignorance / countersquall -- not worth the extra color

my current list runs 18/450 = 1/25 counterspells or exactly 4 percent.

itt we will yell about the following:
-how many counterspells?
-which ones? why?
-other stuff more fun than that

chop it up!

 

[James Stevenson]

card tags.

 

[Laz]

Counter magic is an interesting effect. The cards are somewhat punishing in their flexibility as they often act as pseudo-spot removal, protection, resource denial, all of the good things that help you win Magic, all at the cost of not doing things on your turn.
I am not sure why, but I find that emotionally, having your big spell countered is a lot more painful than simply having it Doom Bladed end-step, sometimes this is rational, as you at least got the ETB effect, but other times it is much more visceral than that. It may be, as the flavor text of one of the counters (Negate) states '(They have) the ability to say merely yes or no', which feels as though it takes your control of the game away, as opposed to just 'Kill your guy', which is fine, I have very little emotional attachment to creatures.

I don't know if a high volume of counter spells is necessarily a good thing for an environment, as instant-speed control is not nearly as interesting as the tension of 'Do I tap out for this, or hold up counter-magic?'. It is for these reasons that I would likely double up on Tidings before I added Opportunity to my cube. I guess it depends also upon whether your Cube tends towards the NWO, with heavy creature emphasis. I know mine does, and so in this regard, a high density of spot removal adds the majority of the interaction. I guess a spell-heavy cube (which would be interesting, if not typical, I am imagining a more refined MODO holiday cube here) would do well to have a high enough density of counter magic to get the fun back and forth of counter battles.

For the record, here is what I run (at 360):
Counterspell
Memory Lapse
Daze
Miscalculation (although this should probably become Remand. I want counter magic which doesn't require UU to be tempo based)
Dissolve
Cryptic Command
Rewind
Mystic Snake

So 1/45, or a little more than 2%

This list is not set in stone, and I could see changing some (Probably Rewind is on the cutting block, Venser would be an alternative).

 

[CML]

card tags? card tags.

 

[CML]

Yeah Rewind is a very "draw-go" card and without a Constructed-critical mass of those cards (which we can never achieve in Cube) it's pretty bad.

I should also say that I added the Rune Snags not because I thought it was the second coming of Gravecrawler but because I wanted more 2-mana counters for curve reasons and quadding up on this one seemed mildly amusing for drafting and playing purposes, esp. given my love of Coldsnap.

Another thing that makes counters worse (and maybe suggests a greater density?) is a lower curve than normal, which is what we all have AFAIK

 

[anotak]

dissipate/syncopate are worthy inclusions when your blue is having trouble w/ slower graveyard interaction decks (which was the case in my cube at one point)

dissolve is interesting, and surprisingly good for a 3 mana counter.

 

[Jason Waddell]

All those except Counterspell seem a little on the weak end, Evasive Action in particular is an abortion

Edit: I do like the exile clause though, like I'm sure Condescend is cooler than Syncopate but wonder if Dissolve is lamer than Dissipate

They're not powerhouses, but all of them get the job done in my cube. All of them are better in my cube than Force of Will, which possibly doesn't even deserve a slot anymore. Daze is amazing and more blowouty than Mana Tithe.

Speaking of which, the most satisfying counter in cubing:

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

No mention of arcane denial yet? I know it's fairly decisive and when it was standard legal I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole. I like it in cube due to ease of casting, hard counter and that it removes some of the feel bad as you get to draw an extra card. I like exclude as well.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Someone else who loves Coldsnap!

The main tension with cheap counterspells is that I don't want to clog up blue with yet more 3+ CMC spells, but it's very easy for blue to become clearly the best colour if there are too many Counterspell-esque cards. I think singleton Cubes actually achieve a nice balance in this regard because the number of 'good' counters is just about right, but it's hard for them to increase the density of counterspells without looking at cards like Dissipate (I do like Dissolve though, I think?). It's also harder to justify doubling up on counterspells; Forbid is a staple effect with potential interactions that work nicely with what my Cube wants to do, which is the perfect description of most of the duplicates I have, but being Forbid-locked is so miserable that I don't want it to happen more often.

Maybe there's room for some kind of Flash deck? There are lots of instant-speed Blink effects in U/W, and Mystic Snake/Draining Whelk(/Voidmage Husher?) to turn them into counters. Green's been getting more flash cards recently - Skylasher, Boon Satyr, Advent of the Wurm, and the spell lands from Innistrad were really interesting in Standard.

(Don't forget the mighty Mana Tithe!)

 

[CML]

Someone else who loves Coldsnap!

The main tension with cheap counterspells is that I don't want to clog up blue with yet more 3+ CMC spells, but it's very easy for blue to become clearly the best colour if there are too many Counterspell-esque cards. I think singleton Cubes actually achieve a nice balance in this regard because the number of 'good' counters is just about right, but it's hard for them to increase the density of counterspells without looking at cards like Dissipate (I do like Dissolve though, I think?). It's also harder to justify doubling up on counterspells; Forbid is a staple effect with potential interactions that work nicely with what my Cube wants to do, which is the perfect description of most of the duplicates I have, but being Forbid-locked is so miserable that I don't want it to happen more often.

Maybe there's room for some kind of Flash deck? There are lots of instant-speed Blink effects in U/W, and Mystic Snake/Draining Whelk(/Voidmage Husher?) to turn them into counters. Green's been getting more flash cards recently - Skylasher, Boon Satyr, Advent of the Wurm, and the spell lands from Innistrad were really interesting in Standard.

(Don't forget the mighty Mana Tithe!)

this is an important point, non-U decks in other formats are better against counterspells due to flash, a lower curve, or (my personal favorite) raping people with lingering souls. though Riptide cubes are better-equipped to deal with counters than "dumb S&T in holiday cube," they're still not pooping rakdos cackler under essence scatter or EOT penis wurm or whatever

as i'm looking to improve blue and give it more of an identity, buffing it is desirable to a point, but U being oppressive is really the last thing i want to do in cube ever

 

[James Stevenson]

nobody's mentioned Draining Whelk, that's a great card. It turns Cackling Counterpart into Forbid (which is a great card). I don't like Rewind at all, I've never seen anyone get value out of it though I have heard tell of such doings. I like Dissolve. I just cut it because I think I have enough counterspells and I need to cut cards. Maybe I would rather cut Force Spike.

 

[Dom Harvey]

I mentioned Draining Whelk, that's a great card!

 

[Goldenpineapple]

I've played with dimir charm. Countered a spell once in the eight+ decks it was played in. I hate hate hate memory lapse so much.

No love for dismiss? Second copy of cryptic yo! You also didn't list bant charm next to other gold cards; that countered more spells than dimir charm while it was in my list.

Maybe there's room for some kind of Flash deck?

Another local pushed tempo (flash/counter) into his cube lately, and it plays pretty well. Speaking of tempo, my all-time favorite counterspell that I'll post for the fourth or so time on these forums:

 

[OCPunisher]

I recently changed Exclude to Arcane Denial because Exclude was really just an aggro/midrange hoser. Denial is a much "fairer" counter that not only targets all spells equally, but comes with the price of drawing extra cards. I really liked the "fairness" concept and I'm not sad to see Exclude gone.

 

[CML]

Has Denial been strong enough?

I'm surprised Whelk is also popular, as Desertion was really bad in my Cube -- maybe Whelk is just better?

 

[James Stevenson]

The key thing is either that it flies or that it can recur. A bit of both, I suppose.

 

[Goldenpineapple]

I hate getting draining whelk'd / splinter twinned or momentary blinked. So much.

 

[Laz]

Thoughts?

 

[Eric Chan]

I actually kind of like



It works wonders on X spells!

 

[CML]

it's not, well, good

i'm cutting force spike and spell snare and trying dimir charm and hinder

 

[anotak]

In what environments are Force Spike and Mana Tithe (or a hypothetical hybrid version) good or bad? I can't decide if a lower curve helps or hurts them.

 

[Changling Bob]

It seems like it's less about whether the curve is high or low, but how much the format punishes you if you're not on curve. Of course, by holding mana to play Force Tithe, you're pushing yourself of curve, so a format that can support playing it can't punish you that hard for not hitting all your drops in order, but enough that you're ok playing a 2 on turn 3, etc. The more instants and mana sinks there are, the worse Force Tithe gets too, I guess? I am probably bad at evaluating cards though, so pinch of salt etc.

 

[anotak]

It is really hard to evaluate the card, because sometimes even in the formats where it is good you draw it a little late and it is awful. obvious statement but i feel like it needed to be said
I know I've had it in decks and been very happy with it. I've also had it in other decks and every game I drew it, it just sat in my hand and I was staring at it really hoping they would play into it and when they finally did even though it was a card not really worth countering I had to use it otherwise it would just do nothing at all.

edit:
perhaps it more has to do w/ flattened power curve because in a flatter power curve environment that last extra card is less likely to be bad

 

[ahadabans]

Guys almost always tap out to play stuff. They get excited about being able to drop whatever nasty thing has been sitting in their hand and they often forget not all counters are created equal. So force spike is rarely dead until late in the game. It's just a really good card in a lot of different decks.

Interestingly enough though, I don't run mana tithe because it's off color. Same reason I don't run Damnation (even though the card is really good).

Mana leak on the other hand. I hate that card with a passion because it costs two and the number of times where your opponent paying three mana versus one mana is relevant doesn't justify that extra cost to me. All my two mana counter spells are either unconditional or they cantrip or cycle or SOMETHING. And IMO, arcane denial is amazing. I wasn't a fan at first, but now I think it's a staple.

 

[Eric Chan]

For what it's worth, I really like having one Stymied Hopes in Theros draft. People are always tapping out all over the place and nobody ever sees it coming (including me, when the shoe is on the other foot).

I'm not sure how this knowledge directly translates over to cube and Mana Tithe, though.