Sets [ELD] Throne of Eldraine

[Peter LaCara]

It looks it came straight out of Dark Souls. The art is great. I rest my case.

It's not Dark Souls. It's something.... older.

 

[ravnic]

You do not talk about the spoiler-including fight club (outside of this thread)

VS


I've been very happy with the Harrier for along time. It is simply elegant, cheap, playable in almost every white deck, and yet includes some decision making and is sometimes the right choice to board out. Very important: The power level is just right, so I don't look for an upgrade here in strength.

Main reason I consider this change: The frame is beautiful.
Main argument for it: More decision making without a raise in power level would be nice.

What would you guys do?

 

[Velrun]

100 % test Giant Killer

It does sort of the same and thus deserves to be tested. I agree that it will most likely impose more decision making which is a good thing. I think you will really be able to feel that extra mana activation but I think you should test how a switch feels or include both for a little while.

And it has a killer name.

 

[Erik Twice]

I was waiting a bit to see if there were any cards that piqued my interest for cube but I didn't see many:

Charming Prince Animating Faerie Glass Casket Witching Well

I like Glass Casket because it has artifact synergies and in the right colour, too.

That said I do look foward to this set. It looks fun for limited, it only has 3 planeswalkers (probably to compensate for War of the Spark) and the environment looks pleasing. I've been thinking about going to a prerelease or drafting in person. The price seems ok for a one-time thing though I'm still rationally fearful of Magic players.

 

[ravnic]

Okay, I have another on, more difficult I think:

VS.


My main concerns: Gobbo can shock creatures, which makes it more maindeckable, but the Knight is just cooler and does not have the weird flavor fail to be able to destroy eldrazi but not lands ("crater"?) ... An obviously I don't have to sac the Knight to kill an artifact.

 

[Velrun]

It seems like you have already made your choice.

Allow me to share just one counter argument: Goblin Cratermaker can smash for 6 damage before it trades 1:1 with an enemy artifact. This is what is appealing to me. This is why I dislike cards like Manic Vandal where the card is either subpar or a dead card until you find yourself in the scenario where enemy actually has an artifact on the board before you wish to go face.

Goblin Cratermaker > Embereth Shieldbreaker > Manic Vandal

However I do agree that it really sucks that gobbo can take down an Eldrazi. It has been living its entire life on Ravnica and thus never known anything but peace and read the history books about the last 10.000 years of Ravnica history which is full of peace. And yet it has the ability to take down an Eldrazi Titan just as easily as a small trinket or locket.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I find it funny that it can't kill colored artifacts. Also not really intuitive. Maybe I should swap out Cratermaker....

 

[Peter LaCara]

100 % test Giant Killer

It does sort of the same and thus deserves to be tested. I agree that it will most likely impose more decision making which is a good thing. I think you will really be able to feel that extra mana activation but I think you should test how a switch feels or include both for a little while.

And it has a killer name.

The art is super tempting, and I like the modal nature of it. I've been very happy with Law-Rune Enforcer, but I might give this guy a shot for a while.

 

[Aston]

You can't fetch Embereth Shieldbreaker with Goblin Matron.

 

[Chris Taylor]

This is pretty sweet at base. Where's Laz?

Replenish + Opalesence (Sp?) in one? This could be sweet.

Solid rate

Holy shit I'm going to die with this thing in play so often

Nonhuman is interesting. Ferocity is sometimes worth it in that Goblin Oriflame doesn't give trample, so this might be better in a more fair context with just random creatures.

 

[Brad]

Oh right, devotion. Huh. Wonder if they're good enough in even that, but that probably did have some consequences.

They're not. I'm pissed.

The UR one sucks, too. Not even gonna post it.

It's as if they forgot that paying CCCC is actually pretty fucking difficult.

This guy is kind of cool. When I think of non-Human RG aggro/midrange, I always think of Nayan type shit, so he's not really working in my mind as a goblin, but that's ok.

Weird misprint here. This is actually called Darker Ritual and does the same thing, but black.

Solid.

This is definitely interesting...

Gets 4 mana of value at cmc 4 and scales up from there. Probably worth a look for some of us here. I'd have been down at XWB/XUB

Pretty sure someone must want this. Especially with Return to Theros coming.

 

[Chris Taylor]

They don't cost CCCC though, they cost 4 hybird. Hybrid is easier than regular mana, not harder.

So of course these look horrible on power level next to Goblin Chainwhirler and Conclave Cavalier, their mana cost is a lot closer to 4 colorless than it is to either of those.

 

[shamizy]

Bonecrusher Giant is great. Trade in the Scry 2 on Magma Jet for a 4/3 later that will shock your opponent if they point any removal at it? What a sweet card.

 

[Brad]

They don't cost CCCC though, they cost 4 hybird. Hybrid is easier than regular mana, not harder.

So of course these look horrible on power level next to Goblin Chainwhirler and Conclave Cavalier, their mana cost is a lot closer to 4 colorless than it is to either of those.

I think it's extremely disingenuous to act like these nearly cost (4). You can't really play a third color in your deck if you run these, particularly in limited when you don't run 20 duals, which is what they're apparently designed for.

Surely AABB is harder. It's got the same constraints but then tries to color screw you as well. And AAA goes even further. But these things have the power level of something that costs 2AA or worse, which doesn't reward anyone at all for full-committing to a two color deck.

The power level in these things is such that they'll never be played in any format at all, despite having unique casting costs that makes them stand out in the set.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Burn decks absolutely want a Fire with a cantrip attached to it. This guy is basically that except the card drawn is an above curve 4/3 with the added bonus of being stupid hard to kill with normal removal without taking damage. At it's absolute worst this is a 5-mana deal 4 to the opponent and Thoughtseize them for a removal spell. This card is insanely good, calling it Solid is a bit of an understatement.

RIP Captain Lannery Storm.

 

[Chris Taylor]

I think it's extremely disingenuous to act like these nearly cost (4). You can't really play a third color in your deck if you run these, particularly in limited when you don't run 20 duals, which is what they're apparently designed for.

Surely AABB is harder. It's got the same constraints but then tries to color screw you as well. And AAA goes even further. But these things have the power level of something that costs 2AA or worse, which doesn't reward anyone at all for full-committing to a two color deck.

The power level in these things is such that they'll never be played in any format at all, despite having unique casting costs that makes them stand out in the set.

Nearly no, but closer to that than CCCC. 2CC or 3C is probably actually pretty close, on blanace.

Also, worth pointing out: "Fully committing" to a 2 color deck is just what you do in limited. 3 color decks are rare, even though it doesn't look like it having spend the last forever long in ravnica and M20 with common duals.

Here's the UR one:

That's a damn good snapping drake. It'd be a real good limited card if it cost 2UR or 2RR or 2UU or whatever, but since it looks like it costs chainwhirler mana everyone's down.

The UB one is shit though

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Nearly no, but closer to that than CCCC. 2CC or 3C is probably actually pretty close, on blanace.

Also, worth pointing out: "Fully committing" to a 2 color deck is just what you do in limited. 3 color decks are rare, even though it doesn't look like it having spend the last forever long in ravnica and M20 with common duals.

Here's the UR one:

That's a damn good snapping drake. It'd be a real good limited card if it cost 2UR or 2RR or 2UU or whatever, but since it looks like it costs chainwhirler mana everyone's down.

The UB one is shit though

Snapping Drake is a common, and approximately 598% easier to cast. 2CC is way less restrictive than this as well. In an average limited environment, people end up in two colors most of the time, though with adamant also in the set, it's possible in ELD for people to end up in monocolored, I presume. I'm going to have to make some assumptions here, but let's be very conservative and say it's four times as likely to end up in a two color deck than in a monocolor deck (with the way bombs and removal dictate drafting, I reckon twenty times as likely is closer to the truth, but let's be kind to monocolor). That means a 2CC card has a chance of 17/45 of being in your colors, while these quadbrids have only a 6/45 chance of ending up in your colors. Because, let's be real, you are not going to be able to cast Loch Dragon in your deck, as it is, for all intents and purposes, a CCCC card in that deck. Loch Dragon is considerably easier to cast on turn 4 in an deck than Crackling Drake (with a classic 8/9 split there's about a 67% chance to have the mana to cast the Crackling Drake, vs a 100% chance to cast the Loch Dragon, based on Karsten's calculations here, and assuming you draw at least four lands, that is), but I'ld gladly tkae that hit in casting consistency for a stronger card like Crackling Drake. And Loch Dragon is about as good as it gets for these quadbrid cards as well. I have to agree with Brad, it's going to be hard to find a home for these in any competitive deck. Maybe Velrun is right, and the best of these can see play once Theros rolls around and brings back devotion.

 

[Brad]

I'm not saying they should be pushed, but to give them a memorable casting cost and put them as a full ten card cycle at uncommon, they shouldn't be below curve. It's unfortunate because the AABB cycle was actually right in the ballpark of what I'd like to see from an interestingly costed uncommon.

 

[Brad]

Missed these earlier.

I find it funny that it can't kill colored artifacts. Also not really intuitive. Maybe I should swap out Cratermaker....

My Dark Betrayal couldn't hit that 4/3 black eldrazi and I lost that game over it.

Cratermaker is a lot better than the alternatives because it trades 1:1 on cards. The other ones can effectively ETB +1 with tempo. It's too brutal unless you're slinging around a lot of ETBs or pretty high power.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Snapping Drake is a common, and approximately 598% easier to cast. 2CC is way less restrictive than this as well. In an average limited environment, people end up in two colors most of the time, though with adamant also in the set, it's possible in ELD for people to end up in monocolored, I presume. I'm going to have to make some assumptions here, but let's be very conservative and say it's four times as likely to end up in a two color deck than in a monocolor deck (with the way bombs and removal dictate drafting, I reckon twenty times as likely is closer to the truth, but let's be kind to monocolor). That means a 2CC card has a chance of 17/45 of being in your colors, while these quadbrids have only a 6/45 chance of ending up in your colors. Because, let's be real, you are not going to be able to cast Loch Dragon in your deck, as it is, for all intents and purposes, a CCCC card in that deck. Loch Dragon is considerably easier to cast on turn 4 in an deck than Crackling Drake (with a classic 8/9 split there's about a 67% chance to have the mana to cast the Crackling Drake, vs a 100% chance to cast the Loch Dragon, based on Karsten's calculations here, and assuming you draw at least four lands, that is), but I'ld gladly tkae that hit in casting consistency for a stronger card like Crackling Drake. And Loch Dragon is about as good as it gets for these quadbrid cards as well. I have to agree with Brad, it's going to be hard to find a home for these in any competitive deck. Maybe Velrun is right, and the best of these can see play once Theros rolls around and brings back devotion.

Okay, so obviously these are hard to talk about, because everyone seems to have different wants, needs and expectations of these.

On the sliding scale of power vs consistency, I propose this: (I didn't have a great example that cost 2UR flier)
Crackling Drake > Fluxcharger > Loch Drake > Snapping Drake > Snare Thopter
I think 2UR and Quadbrid are a lot closer than any of the other pips on this scale FWIW, and somewhere in the middle there's the hypotherical card that I can't think of right now.
Also do note that snare thopter is a bit above rate for an artifact creature get to be usually.

I get that you'd rather have the less consistent more powerful cards, but why does that matter in a discussion about these? Like if there's some card in this set that costs 2GW are we going to come back here wishing it was conclave cavalier powerful?

 

[sigh]

Haven't we been in a beastly power peak lately? Seems like they are starting to try to swing it back lower for a bit. I think most of the quadbrids are decent in limited. Nice way to all bit ensure a color pairing gets its multicolored cog card.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'm not saying they should be pushed, but to give them a memorable casting cost and put them as a full ten card cycle at uncommon, they shouldn't be below curve. It's unfortunate because the AABB cycle was actually right in the ballpark of what I'd like to see from an interestingly costed uncommon.

This sums up my feelings about the quadbrids pretty well. Everything about the casting cost screams: "Look at me! I'm special!", and when I do, I'm like: "that's supposed to be special? Meh."

 

[Brad]

Hybrids are consistently a hot debate topic, I'll give them that. So, which color section should we put these in??? I'm kidding. Don't reply to that. The dragon clearly goes in the blue section.

Are they trying to get me to make a red cube? It's just decent, assuming you're in a color slanted environment, but I'd love some adamant cards in black... Haven't looked up anything about the set, but seems like they're not gonna happen?

 

[Velrun]

Maybe Velrun is right, and the best of these can see play once Theros rolls around and brings back devotion.

For the record: I did not mention the keyword ‘Devotion’.

I mentioned Theros. If I should elaborate right now I would guess Theros 2.0 will have a focus on monocolored decks. They could bring back devotion or something else. Maybe a tweak on devotion that checks for colored mana in the casting cost of spells. In this way it would also check for the UB Eldraine spell that costs 4x hybrid mana.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Adamant is in all 5 colors, there's even a cycle of lands:

I mean hey, it's fetchable

The real joke is there's this card to compliment it:

Even so, it takes a lot at 7 mana to be worth it. I dunno how much damage it'd be, but 7 aint it.