Immediate Action seems like it might be good for Gravecrawler decks if those still exist (not in my cube, but...). Gravecrawler with haste seems soooo good. Anyone still trying to support black aggro that can give more informed opinion on that?
General How do YOU plan to use the various Conspiracy cards?
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
These decks still exist in my cube but aren't exactly in need of any help. I think most of the designers with Gravecrawlers in service are in the process of toning the archetype down a bit.
Yeah Gravecrawler doesn't need any more juice. On the other hand, this pile of Squadron Hawks over here could use a boost!
I must be behind. Last I heard about those decks was hand wringing over how to make them good. Glad to hear that's not the case anymore!
Chris Taylor
Contributor
How to make them good is some number of crawlers/bloodghasts and a modicum of sac outlets. Breaking singleton basically did all the work for us
Once it's together, making the deck an appropiate ammount of consistent can be hard to measure.
I don't think I'll be including any of the name a card ones, except for maybe the "splash cardname for free" one. While gravecrawler with haste is probably strong but fine, what about inferno titan? What about kitchen finks with a +1/+1 counter? what about cantripping gravecrawler? What about lingering souls that copies itself each time?
CML
Contributor
reading all the reports of how triple CNS drafts went makes me wary of continuing to play any of the Conspiracies except Worldknit. drawing even a single card for no opportunity cost is pretty damn good, given that the opportunity cost ('deckbuilding' in the awesome case of Worldknit) i sort of wonder how to evaluate effects like free counter or free card this within the context of Gravecrawlers and Brainstorms. My instinct is that they're just way too strong and will lead to awful gameplay.
I think CML is right here. There isn't any way to interact with the cards and some of the effects are so ridiculously powerful. All they take is to snatch them up during the draft and if you don't see them first... Remind me of moxes in that respect. Pervesely, I think they will be in their best in power max cubes, I'm not sure they're right for the majority of cubes here.
However, I think generally the Cogwork creatures are pretty good and add another element of fun to the draft. Deal Broker is by far the one I'm most excited about.
Re the normal cards, I was hot on Brago, but am going off him. I'm still undecided about Paliano: I think it will be good but the memory option is really irritating. I would be on it in a second if we had those D6s that Chris suggested.
Grenzo seems fine but not all that exciting. I would actually be interested to try Selvana, Explorer Returned. She has a good body and although the card draw is symetrical it pushes the game along. Also I find most of the selesyna options dull.
However, I think generally the Cogwork creatures are pretty good and add another element of fun to the draft. Deal Broker is by far the one I'm most excited about.
Re the normal cards, I was hot on Brago, but am going off him. I'm still undecided about Paliano: I think it will be good but the memory option is really irritating. I would be on it in a second if we had those D6s that Chris suggested.
Grenzo seems fine but not all that exciting. I would actually be interested to try Selvana, Explorer Returned. She has a good body and although the card draw is symetrical it pushes the game along. Also I find most of the selesyna options dull.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Here's my thoughts from drafing this so far (I've been proxying these for about 5 drafts, all 6 man. wish I coulda got bigger drafts but oh well)
Backup Plan: Super solid, not broken. Possibly a bit insane if your cube has degenerate combo decks who can afford to agressively mulligan to a small subset of cards, but no one card in my cube is that powerful. (I'm talking leyline of the void against dredge powerful). One thing to note is that if you're lax on mulligans the effect is less pronounced. I was playing with my buddies one friday night and one of them commented "It basically codifies our easy mulligan rules, but it's still good."
Cogwork Librarian: Drafting with this guy is AWESOME, the only negative feedback I've ever had is someone thought he was OP the smaller the draft gets (like 4 people). You get 2 first picks, then someone either gives up their one shot at a good card in the pack, or you just always have access to his effect. He can easily be slotted out for those draft sizes if you feel this is the case, but I'm unsure of how true it was. I sharpied his mana cost to be 3, and he made maybe 1-2 maindecks (Sometimes you just need a butt). I think it's safe to say if he cost for that number would have been zero + laughter.
Power Play: This card is bananas. As printed, since conspiracy is multiplayer only (and as such one game, not a match) in regular best 2 out of 3, you go first, followed by going first, and then going first. I've informed my drafters it only affects the first game, and it's still REAL good. I can easily see myself first picking this thing.
Worldknit: I honestly don't even care how good this thing is, it's hilarious and causes some real great stories, and will be a mainstay in my cube for quite a long time. I will however inform you that it's not actually that great a card. The added inconsistency of playing a 60-80 card limited deck is a real one, and you can't control everything you draft: plenty of 5 color aggro decks end up getting bogarden hellkite 15th, and plenty of control decks occasionally get things like reckless charge that they really just don't need. Also: let your drafters just say what all their basics are. I had a guy open Koth and eventually realize I hadn't brought enough mountains for him to play his deck. so he grabbed a pile of random ones left over and just told people at the beginning of matches.
Deal Broker: the body has been good, the looting has been good (and I don't even run reanimator!) but the strange thing is I haven't seen anyone actually accept a trade yet. Maybe my drafters are just a bit wary of people having the cards they want, but the only trade which has ever been accepted was brainstorm for... wait for it... another brainstorm. Maybe I'm just drafting with the wrong people.
Dack's Duplicate: Haste has been real good, and dethrone comes up more than you think. this guy is solid. Yeah sometimes you clone inferno titan and do a little dance, but even on more mundane things it's been really good. We had a player come back from really deep in the hole by stealing and using this on a kitchen finks, using goblin bombardment and dethrone triggers to get a pile of finks triggers, running his opponent out of cards pretty well.
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden: this guy is the real deal. He's much much bigger than you ever expect a creature to be out of the BR aggro deck, and he does a really solid lin sivvi impression (Though sometimes you hit land, land, vortex, land, blightning as one drafter did). He also plays great, as flipping the bottom card takes a bit of work, adding to the anticipation for both drafters. There was a game where he had about 5 activations on my turn and his to hit Tundermaw Hellkite, and boy howdy have I never been more excited about essentially rolling dice.
As well as my thoughts on a few cards I haven't tried: (They just aren't right for my environment right now)
Advantageous Proclamation: the flatter the power level on your cube is, the worse this card gets. As stated in Colby's set review, it allows you to cut your 3ish worst cards on average, and if the bellcurve on your limited deck is Gideon Jura >>>Goblin Patrol then it's great, but if it's Hellrider >>> Bonesplitter you aren't really going to feel that pick justified.
Council's Judgement: It's good sure, but do remember we might be getting close to the point where we don't actually need more oblivion rings. I've seen a few people pissed about how ludacris the wording is on what ends up being such a simple card, and if you don't actually run dross like True Name Nemesis (Sorry I really hate that thing design wise) you probably don't need the shroud clause. I wouldn't fault anyone for passing.
Split Decision: I'm not to in tune with the storm deck on the whole, but if there was ever a fork worth playing, it being U1 is probably not a bad place to start.
Backup Plan: Super solid, not broken. Possibly a bit insane if your cube has degenerate combo decks who can afford to agressively mulligan to a small subset of cards, but no one card in my cube is that powerful. (I'm talking leyline of the void against dredge powerful). One thing to note is that if you're lax on mulligans the effect is less pronounced. I was playing with my buddies one friday night and one of them commented "It basically codifies our easy mulligan rules, but it's still good."
Cogwork Librarian: Drafting with this guy is AWESOME, the only negative feedback I've ever had is someone thought he was OP the smaller the draft gets (like 4 people). You get 2 first picks, then someone either gives up their one shot at a good card in the pack, or you just always have access to his effect. He can easily be slotted out for those draft sizes if you feel this is the case, but I'm unsure of how true it was. I sharpied his mana cost to be 3, and he made maybe 1-2 maindecks (Sometimes you just need a butt). I think it's safe to say if he cost for that number would have been zero + laughter.
Power Play: This card is bananas. As printed, since conspiracy is multiplayer only (and as such one game, not a match) in regular best 2 out of 3, you go first, followed by going first, and then going first. I've informed my drafters it only affects the first game, and it's still REAL good. I can easily see myself first picking this thing.
Worldknit: I honestly don't even care how good this thing is, it's hilarious and causes some real great stories, and will be a mainstay in my cube for quite a long time. I will however inform you that it's not actually that great a card. The added inconsistency of playing a 60-80 card limited deck is a real one, and you can't control everything you draft: plenty of 5 color aggro decks end up getting bogarden hellkite 15th, and plenty of control decks occasionally get things like reckless charge that they really just don't need. Also: let your drafters just say what all their basics are. I had a guy open Koth and eventually realize I hadn't brought enough mountains for him to play his deck. so he grabbed a pile of random ones left over and just told people at the beginning of matches.
Deal Broker: the body has been good, the looting has been good (and I don't even run reanimator!) but the strange thing is I haven't seen anyone actually accept a trade yet. Maybe my drafters are just a bit wary of people having the cards they want, but the only trade which has ever been accepted was brainstorm for... wait for it... another brainstorm. Maybe I'm just drafting with the wrong people.
Dack's Duplicate: Haste has been real good, and dethrone comes up more than you think. this guy is solid. Yeah sometimes you clone inferno titan and do a little dance, but even on more mundane things it's been really good. We had a player come back from really deep in the hole by stealing and using this on a kitchen finks, using goblin bombardment and dethrone triggers to get a pile of finks triggers, running his opponent out of cards pretty well.
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden: this guy is the real deal. He's much much bigger than you ever expect a creature to be out of the BR aggro deck, and he does a really solid lin sivvi impression (Though sometimes you hit land, land, vortex, land, blightning as one drafter did). He also plays great, as flipping the bottom card takes a bit of work, adding to the anticipation for both drafters. There was a game where he had about 5 activations on my turn and his to hit Tundermaw Hellkite, and boy howdy have I never been more excited about essentially rolling dice.
As well as my thoughts on a few cards I haven't tried: (They just aren't right for my environment right now)
Advantageous Proclamation: the flatter the power level on your cube is, the worse this card gets. As stated in Colby's set review, it allows you to cut your 3ish worst cards on average, and if the bellcurve on your limited deck is Gideon Jura >>>Goblin Patrol then it's great, but if it's Hellrider >>> Bonesplitter you aren't really going to feel that pick justified.
Council's Judgement: It's good sure, but do remember we might be getting close to the point where we don't actually need more oblivion rings. I've seen a few people pissed about how ludacris the wording is on what ends up being such a simple card, and if you don't actually run dross like True Name Nemesis (Sorry I really hate that thing design wise) you probably don't need the shroud clause. I wouldn't fault anyone for passing.
Split Decision: I'm not to in tune with the storm deck on the whole, but if there was ever a fork worth playing, it being U1 is probably not a bad place to start.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Oh and for anyone actually wanting the WUBRG1 D6, it looks like chessex will actally make em for you: http://www.chessex.com/Dice/Custom_Dice_Home.htm
They are ligit, they make a lot of really nice RPG gear, so this isn't some basement job
They are ligit, they make a lot of really nice RPG gear, so this isn't some basement job
In my CNS drafts, most of the degenerate gameplay (degenerate in the long term -- it was pretty fun for an afternoon) came from plays who had a large number of a single common card. On the creature side, they turned into Birds of Paradise, got +1/+1 counters, and came in for a reduced mana cost. Sorceries and instants could be cheaper, but could also be copied, which was pretty nasty.
While not completely singleton, it seems like most cubes wouldn't benefit much from those conspiracies. I'm currently looking at testing:
Worldknit
Advantageous Proclamation
Deal Broker
Aether Searcher
Paliano
Canal Dredger
Cogwork Librarian
Paliano
Power Play
Unexpected Potential
Lurking Automaton was really fun in the actual draft, but mainly because you had to consider the possibility of multiples after the first was drafted. I ended up with 2 8/8s for 5. Not a great thing to be public knowledge in a multiplayer ffa...
While not completely singleton, it seems like most cubes wouldn't benefit much from those conspiracies. I'm currently looking at testing:
Worldknit
Advantageous Proclamation
Deal Broker
Aether Searcher
Paliano
Canal Dredger
Cogwork Librarian
Paliano
Power Play
Unexpected Potential
Lurking Automaton was really fun in the actual draft, but mainly because you had to consider the possibility of multiples after the first was drafted. I ended up with 2 8/8s for 5. Not a great thing to be public knowledge in a multiplayer ffa...
I more interested in trying to build this cube than most people seem to. I guess it means play a bunch of dumb commons rather than more interesting cards, but you can at least make them interesting dumb commons.
Like, 4 squadron hawks, 4 mana elves, 4 dudes with haste, to actually mean that some of the conspiracies actually aren't as good if you're drafting those archetypes because, you know, they do that thing already. I dunno. Might make a thread.
E: unexpected potential means we're going straight to cruel ultimatum town with maelstrom wander and the attempt to pull of potential/worldknit into fucking COALITION VICTORY. we're going to go deep. lets go deep. i'll make a thread when it's not time to play diablo.
CML
Contributor
i do like backup plan too, i guess. i drafted cns last night and it sucked though this may have been a function of the overall environment being lame + mtg not being a multiplayer game. i wouldn't run any of the conspiracies except backup plan and worldknit. i feel very positively about any of the draft-modifying cards
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
The thing with the conspiracies are that their only cost is a draft pick. They don't occupy any deckspace, so if you draft it, it improves your deck and for the most part these aren't weak effects. For someone like me who has inflated the amount of draft space tremendously, the opportunity cost of a draft pick is lower, so conspiracies, which are already extremely strong would be ridiculously powerful and the complete lack of deckbuilding finesse they require makes them very unsatisfying. The draft altering cards also don't seem very fun, so this set has little to offer to me.
Oh, I completely agree. I was just talking about my current cube, but I have definitely added "Make a multiplayer CNS-inspired cube" to my ever increasing list of things cube-related I would like to do. I have a lot of casual/multi-player friends who would love it. The key is making sure it is just sliiiightly less fun than my main cube, even for MP lovers. That's going to take a lot of finesse.
Cogwork Librarian was super fun in Conspiracy draft tonight, and by far the most interesting of the "draft face-up" cards. I don't know if it's overkill to run two of these in my cube. Most of the other constructs we encountered were more gimmicky than anything. In particular, I feel like Lore Seeker is more fun in theory than in practice.
I was skeptical about Worldknit, but it's actually sweet. I think I want this in cube now.
I'm probably going to start by trying most of the other conspiracy and hidden agenda cards. I worry that reducing the cost or making copies of my four Rune Snags might break things in half, but I still want to see it happen once. The hidden agendas in particular almost make me want to triple up on weaker cards - the cube equivalents of hurf durf - but at the same time, I don't want to scale back my multiples of Burst Lightning, Champion of the Parish, and Delver of Secrets. Not really sure how to approach this.
I was skeptical about Worldknit, but it's actually sweet. I think I want this in cube now.
I'm probably going to start by trying most of the other conspiracy and hidden agenda cards. I worry that reducing the cost or making copies of my four Rune Snags might break things in half, but I still want to see it happen once. The hidden agendas in particular almost make me want to triple up on weaker cards - the cube equivalents of hurf durf - but at the same time, I don't want to scale back my multiples of Burst Lightning, Champion of the Parish, and Delver of Secrets. Not really sure how to approach this.
If this card is half as good in cube as I assume it is, I wonder if there's any appetite for fixing the die roll problem in general. With the fast environments that riptide cubes tend to encourage, winning the die roll seems like it's more important than in, say, the MTGO cube. I suppose I could toss in multiple copies of Power Play, wash my hands of the issue, and call it a day, but I get the nagging feeling that there's a more elegant solution out there.
CML
Contributor
I doubt it's more than a 52% to 48% edge just eyeballing various limited formats, but i have no basis for saying this and would be oh so grateful to anyone who can pull up the figures for Standard, Modern and Legacy (cube is slower than Standard). Maybe Block is a good comparison?
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Yeah forking rune snag is the opposite of oppressive. I'd be way more worried about someone set to copy char everytime it comes up or lingering souls
I'm not sure adding excess copies of less than solid cards to make Muzzio's preperations better is worth it in the long run. The opportunity cost in cube is lower than usual since we have more playables, and 3/3 goblin guides 10% of the time seems perfectly fine compared to 2/2 mons's goblin raiders 65% of the time (this week's numbers brought to you by the AssPull statistics institute for argument backing uping)
I kind of hate this thread but it keeps being my last one in Cube Talk so I keep clicking on it, even though I know I can use the "mark forums as read" thing.
For some reason I've developed an irrational hatred for this set, which I can't really describe, but I don't even want to write an article about it or really digest the visual spoiler. I've never felt more curmudeony before.
For some reason I've developed an irrational hatred for this set, which I can't really describe, but I don't even want to write an article about it or really digest the visual spoiler. I've never felt more curmudeony before.
Like I know I made the thread but I get a little angry every time I see there's a new post and it happens to be on this shitter of a topic. Somebody go make a better thread.
Go read about how sweet games are in the devotion thread, because lol riptide topics.
I feel like the trick to this is going to be something like running cards that are fine by themselves in some multiples to get conspiracy'd, and some other cards that are really good conspiracy'd but you're using your resources on one sweet dude instead of getting a legion of haste-y squadron hawks or something. I suspect the creature ones are more acceptable to do this with than the spell ones, as the spell ones will just end up being lava axes for R instead of slightly above curve creatures.
Or, you know, build your own ancestral recall.
I like how in other boards the moderators will split topics and give warnings to people for veering from the thread's designated purpose.
Yeah, the more I think about it, Twincasting Doom Blade to wipe out your team on turn two sounds like the opposite of fun. Even turning a random Farseek into a cantrip might be way too good, because it's guaranteed to happen every time you cast it. Only the creature-based hidden agendas seem interesting for cube, in that granting haste or +1/+1 is less than a card's worth of value. But then Muzzio's Preparations is a one-card combo with Kitchen Finks - in that every Kitchen Finks you cast all night is almost straight up invincible - and even though that's a relatively innocent interaction in the grand scheme of things, it's still dumb enough that I'm not going to include it.