Sets Shadows over Innistrad Spoilers Thread

[RavebornMuse]

Initial Impressions:
- This set has disappointed me on playable zombies, as I expected. Some options available if you're really low-powered or looking to dabble, but not enough grab me to plant the seeds of a cross-colour theme
- I would've liked to see that white exile-from-yard: effect thing pushed a bit more
- I'm a bit surprised we didn't get more really playable madness cards? I dunno, maybe I'm just greedy, but I kinda wanted to look into pushing some into my main cube, rather than it just being incidental on a few things. Oh well.
- I kinda expected more Delirium-feeding goodies
- As usual I am bummed by a lack of goodies for my thinner multicolor sections
- Wow they're not shy about slapping menace on everything anymore, are they?

More details to come when my over-optimistic evaluations mellow a tad more, but I'd say I'm generally more excited about this set than the last two blocks combined.
(That's not saying much cuz I didn't like Khans or Zendikar oops)

 

[vennythekid]

I'd jam it. Seems like a fun take on a grindy, beatdown pauper brew


I've been wondering this myself.... one possible explanation is that with core sets gone, they have to kinda... sneak some more explicit wordings in to give a little boost to players still grasping lingo? All that aside, that's probably the most interesting of the vessels for cube. I might find some selection spell in green to replace with this.

It might be that with Delirium in the set, they want to spell out different card types as much as possible.

 

[CML]

missing anything?

archangel avacyn
jace, unraveler of secrets
relentless dead
descend upon the sinful
seasons past
geralf’s masterpiece
mindwrack demon
welcome to the fold
from under the floorboards
avacyn’s judgment
traverse the ulvenwald
thalia’s lieutenant
diregraf colossues
falkenrath gorger
hanweir militia captain
ever after
scourge wolf
always watching
asylum visitor
sin prodder
deathcap cultivator
confirm suspicions
to the slaughter
epiphany at the drownyard
tireless tracker
sage of ancient lore
bygone bishop
thing in the ice
town gossipmonger
arlinn kord
nahiri, the harbinger
sorin, grim nemesis
olivia, mobilized for war
the gitrog monster
anguished unmaking
altered ego
corrupted grafstone
brain in a jar
port town
choked estuary
foreboding ruins
game trail
fortified village
westvale abbey

mainly excited for spoiler season to end so the daily dot can publish my book excerpt and it will rule reddit

 

[Aoret]

missing anything?

just the other thread I made for these types of rollups

 

[FlowerSunRain]

How hittable is delrium? If you cast a faithless looting or a franatic search you are probably 3/4 of the way there. I run a crapton of enchantments, which helps too. I don't think you're hitting it automatically, but with an eye for it its probably not that hard.

This looks like a pretty good card unless its actually carder then I think. 4/4 for 4 isn't unprecidented, but those keyswords are rocking and the setup it requires is interesting.

 

[Jovial]

Initial Impressions:
...
- Wow they're not shy about slapping menace on everything anymore, are they?

More details to come when my over-optimistic evaluations mellow a tad more, but I'd say I'm generally more excited about this set than the last two blocks combined.
(That's not saying much cuz I didn't like Khans or Zendikar oops)

That line made me laugh out loud for whatever reason.

 

[GiftsForgiven]

Initial Impressions:
- I'm a bit surprised we didn't get more really playable madness cards? I dunno, maybe I'm just greedy, but I kinda wanted to look into pushing some into my main cube, rather than it just being incidental on a few things. Oh well.

Maro has said in the past in some of his developmental podcasts that the dev. team overall considered madness a 'mistake' in terms of how powerful a mechanic it was. He additionally noted that they were highly unlikely to bring it back. Obviously, they did, but I'm not surprised that they were perhaps overly cautious about it's inclusion this time.

(I feel like they felt that they had to include it for thematic reasons...)

 

[sigh]

How hittable is delrium?

You can do it T1 off a fetch + looting, but I'm not sure what doing it that early gains you (besides a second turn 4/5 goyf).
That enchant is pretty nifty. Didn't notice the hexproof at first. Might be worth testing as a GY-synergied "troll"

 

[RavebornMuse]

I'm still debating includes, but here's two that are puzzling me the most.

How is this if you're supporting enchantments and graveyard shenanigans? I wish the recursion cost was ; at that rate, I think I'd be pretty much sold. At the current costing, I'd kinda like an additional */+1 on defense, but maybe it's good enough to consider as-is. Notably, it doesn't trigger prowess, but it still kicks on Eidolon of Blossoms, at the least, and the evasion has to count for something.

Skulk feels just right on a creature this big. Obviously this is a huge step up from Drekavac, but is it a step up high enough? Obviously a real pain to draw in top deck mode, but I think this looks like a great body for the price. (edit: actually not really; I was still thinking in Drekavac terms.) We're looking to discard something with madness/flashback, a body for reanimator, or a land to not feel like shit about this play, and I'm wondering how often we'll get that. I think with this set, I'll be pushing the graveyard stuff up another good notch for my list, so maybe it could just make the cut here, but maybe that'd be a mistake.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Skulk feels just right on a creature this big. Obviously this is a huge step up from Drekavac, but is it a step up high enough? Obviously a real pain to draw in top deck mode, but I think this looks like a great body for the price. (edit: actually not really; I was still thinking in Drekavac terms.) We're looking to discard something with madness/flashback, a body for reanimator, or a land to not feel like shit about this play, and I'm wondering how often we'll get that. I think with this set, I'll be pushing the graveyard stuff up another good notch for my list, so maybe it could just make the cut here, but maybe that'd be a mistake.

I was wondering about this one myself. There are precious few good discard outlets (that actually work as a discard outlet, and don't pose like one, I'm looking at you Pack Rat) black, and I would like two or so more in my cube to support reanimator, dredge, stuff like that.

 

[Aoret]

I feel like you run one of him in a test slot and see how many times you discard Bloodghast or 2shieldz to him. I think it is promising.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Thing in the Ice is €11 over here, which is quite ridiculous for a rare that fits only a handful of decks because it limits your deck construction so much. I guess I hope I'll pull it next weekend? Or wait of course till it appears in only a handful of decks, none of which are very succesful... Sin Prodder at €5 seems a bit high as well.

 

[sigh]

I'm not sure Thing is going to be in the "none of which are very successful" category, but that price does sound a tad high.... thank god for printers, I guess

 

[FlowerSunRain]

I'd much rather be here, mostly because you can wait to discard the card and have all your mana to pay for madness. Also, with sorcery speed removal, you don't get 2-1'd before you get in an attak. Both cards are pretty decent, though.

The fact that this set has 4 black two drops worth considering is crazy.

 

[ahadabans]

Without a strong self discard package, I think pale rider is a questionable include. I see the bloodghast/2shields synergy but what about when you don't have one of them and then you get 2 for 1'd from removal? 3/3 for 2 upside feels weak to me.

 

[sigh]

I'm still debating includes, but here's two that are puzzling me the most.

How is this if you're supporting enchantments and graveyard shenanigans? I wish the recursion cost was ; at that rate, I think I'd be pretty much sold. At the current costing, I'd kinda like an additional */+1 on defense, but maybe it's good enough to consider as-is. Notably, it doesn't trigger prowess, but it still kicks on Eidolon of Blossoms, at the least, and the evasion has to count for something.

I really really like this enchantment. The GY recursion might be a little steep, as you say, but the fact that it gives evasion is what makes it, imo. A recurrable addition to a weenies archetype, giving evasion to Champs, porcelain legionnaire, seeker of the way etc. and then being able to get another flier later in the game just seems really cool.

 

[blacksmithy]

Yeah, it also doesn't have the Rancor problem of not recurring when it gets countered, its target gets zapped in response to the cast, etc

 

[sigh]

Yeah, it also doesn't have the Rancor problem of not recurring when it gets countered, its target gets zapped in response to the cast, etc

I like the parallel to Rancor. Might this be white's Rancor-enchant?

• one mana
• adds power and an evasion ability
• recurs
• cool art

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I know every time a new set comes out, a bunch of you guys get a little over optimistic about the cards, but I think we need to stop and pause for a second if we're seriously contemplating running pale rider or comparing gryff's boon to rancor.

One is a 4cc recurring aura with negligible upsides, and the other one only doesn't lose you the game when you cast it if its magical Christmas time.

 

[RavebornMuse]

I know every time a new set comes out, a bunch of you guys get a little over optimistic about the cards, but I think we need to stop and pause for a second if we're seriously contemplating running pale rider or comparing gryff's boon to rancor.

One is a 4cc recurring aura with negligible upsides, and the other one only doesn't lose you the game when you cast it if its magical Christmas time.

Optimistic evaluations are necessary to crack through powermax ideology; we'll never get anywhere if we're sitting around being pessimistic. Openly airing optimism is better I find, even if hindsight often makes us look stupid for it. Trying bold, probably-bad ideas is how I got a format that I like; all the failed experiments inform a structure that I think is pretty enjoyable and pretty far off the beaten, standard cube path. If I dismissed every optimistic idea I had, I wouldn't have gotten a format I love so much. I'm sure that's true for many here.

As far as Pale Rider, it's not a sacrifice clause, so it's a fine topdeck or it works nicely with madness, flashback, reanimator targets (you're already in black), or just pitching unnecessary lands in an aggro shell. A 3/3 with Skulk means it's more likely to eat chump blockers and slide under go-tall/midrange decks, while still having the toughness to weather the wealth of 2/x's of the format. I really think that "the other one only doesn't lose you the game when you cast it if its magical Christmas time" is about as far in the wrong direction as calling Gryff's Boon the white Rancor. Obviously Your Cube May Vary, but I push graveyard interactions enough that I think Pale Rider will be a solid pick for aggro or graveyard-tilted decks and wind up in the final 40 at least half of the time, and that's enough for me to test it and see where it really can go. We don't have nearly enough of a perspective yet on how powerful Skulk may be, but I'm guessing quite powerful based off of how creatures tend to get around in my own format.

For Gryff's Boon, I'll agree that Rancor comparisons are very bold and mostly unjustified at a 4-cmc retrieval cost and no on-cast trigger. As blacksmithy indicated, this is perhaps a shade better than Rancor because losing it to counters/fizzles won't happen, which is a common-case problem for our green all-star. I think a retrieval cost of 1 or 2 would've made it a snap include; 4 is where we're really pushing it. I'm appreciating the card as a "lessons learned" by R&D re: Vineweft, and while I'm not sure I'll try it, exploring the potential conceptually doesn't seem all that bad. There's plenty of room to dissent, but I wouldn't say that finger-wagging optimism is really the best route to effective card evaluation.

On that note: is anyone here thinking of packing more madness into their list, or are we all just running Asylum Visitor and calling that the end of things?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm not finger waving optimisim, i'm saying the way both of these cards are being evaluated feels very off, prob because they are new. One card requires card disadvantage, and the other a 4cc mana investment to recur. That shouldn't be being glossed over.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

+1/+0 and flying is a fair effect at , arguably better than +2/+0 and trample. Being able to recur it for in the mid to late game is all upside. Certainly the rider on Rancor is better when it works, but it's also easier to interact with. My gut feeling says Rancor is better, but if you like Rancor, I'ld say this is at least testable.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I'm in the middle of a draft right now, but the difference is in efficiency. 1 mana to recur is a vastly better rate than 4.

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Rancor is definitely better. The difference between 1 and 4 to recast isn't even close. That doesn't mean Gryff's isn't playable. Rancor is the best card in my cube. There's room below rancor.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

And thats fine, as long as we acknowlege that the analogy being offered up between the two cards is without merit.

Rider is pretty bad outside of specific support. The math of the game makes card disadvantage a heavy price to pay.

If we are fairly evaluating the cards, we have to address the fairly blatent flaws as well as the strenghs. Both of these cards come with significant flaws.