Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight

[Meltyman]

(in addition to vindicate)

I think you shouldn't add both, too similar and not that exciting.
I chose Utter End over Vindicate just because i don't miss the Stone Rain part of Vindicate, especially since my cube has bounce lands and doesn't have that many lands that must be answered.
4 mana is a bit rough, but it being instant should make up for it.. I have seen people play it often and i haven't heard of any complaints yet.

 

[Jonas]

(in addition to vindicate)

Do you really want a boring card like that clogging up your cube?

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

I don't see why utter end is boring and vindicate isn't (though I recognise you're not advocating that). Agree with meltyman, I don't like the stone rain aspect of vindicate. I do like that utter end exiles so I can splash damage removing gods.

 

[Jonas]

I actually think Vindicate is more exciting because of the stone rain effect, but I like ponza, so I can usually be disregarded in these discussions.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

If your gold section isn't too big I'ld be looking for cards with a bit more identity. If you run a bigger gold section, like I do, Utter End is a really nice removal spell. I like that it's a catch-all answer (apart from lands of course) that isn't too cheap.

 

[Lucre]

let it destroy lands and we are talkin
If you are making serious use of Stone Rain or Demolish type effects in your BW deck then I feel like you've earned unfooting the control and midranged decks (unless they suck already). Plus it's hardly a problem if your removal spells cost 2 generally lol.

Have you guys ever bounced a land with venser? "Conan, what is best in life?"

 

[Goldenpineapple]

Have you guys ever bounced a land with venser? "Conan, what is best in life?"

Just last week I got eot venser-your-land (killed him), untap, riftwing cloudskate your land, momentary blink when I had the kill spell. I am not amused by boomerang ETBs.

is actually one of the gold sections I have the most trouble getting my drafters to take- only tidehollow sculler, sorin, and the removal spells get picked at any priority. Cartel aristocrat, gerrard's verdict, and a couple others tabled into infinite too often to keep in with good conscience.

So I play both vindicate and utter end because while "boring" they are both powerful and people stretch their mana to play them. If your cube has more than one type of threat (creatures) they're great. No one wants to play flat-out disenchant in the average list, but no one should mind taking removal-with-upside if it's this versatile.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Sculler is sweet, but lingering souls plays like a BW card, and people loooooooove that bad boy. Just added a second.

 

[Dom Harvey]

It's not popular here but Magister of Worth is a very strong W/B card

 

[Meltyman]

is actually one of the gold sections I have the most trouble getting my drafters to take- only tidehollow sculler, sorin, and the removal spells get picked at any priority. Cartel aristocrat, gerrard's verdict, and a couple others tabled into infinite too often to keep in with good conscience.

So I play both vindicate and utter end because while "boring" they are both powerful and people stretch their mana to play them. If your cube has more than one type of threat (creatures) they're great. No one wants to play flat-out disenchant in the average list, but no one should mind taking removal-with-upside if it's this versatile.

Obzedat's Aid, Sin Collector, Lingering Souls and maybe even Ashen Rider

 

[CML]

more like obzedat AIDS



eh?

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Shush!

 

[Diakonov]

more like obzedat AIDS



eh?

Seems fun with Academy Rector

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Seems fun with Academy Rector

'fun'

Speaking of which, has anyone had luck with utlity zur? A friend gave it to me today and it made me wonder. I'm already running some curses and enchantment-based removal, and it fetches enchantment creatures.

 

[ahadabans]

Zur is a really fun card, but he's three colors. And that really makes him hard to draft I think. You have to commit really early to those colors and hope you get all the cool utility enchantments that make him good. As my group rarely drafts the whole cube, it never seemed practical to run him. But YMMV.

 

[Lucre]

Just last week I got eot venser-your-land (killed him), untap, riftwing cloudskate your land, momentary blink when I had the kill spell. I am not amused by boomerang ETBs.

is actually one of the gold sections I have the most trouble getting my drafters to take- only tidehollow sculler, sorin, and the removal spells get picked at any priority. Cartel aristocrat, gerrard's verdict, and a couple others tabled into infinite too often to keep in with good conscience.

So I play both vindicate and utter end because while "boring" they are both powerful and people stretch their mana to play them. If your cube has more than one type of threat (creatures) they're great. No one wants to play flat-out disenchant in the average list, but no one should mind taking removal-with-upside if it's this versatile.

so wait didnt you have any of your own stuff going on?

I feel like if someone draws all their expensive bounce guys and tricks and you're drawing a little light then it's kinda alright that they take a game or so off of you. To me complaining about having your land vensered is kinda like complaining about when someone curves out on you with a 1 a 2 and a 3. But like I get it, I'm really sick of having to play durdly 3 colour control decks all the time in cube if I wana play reactive, that sort of strategy can prey on archetypes if there is a lot of inequality going on.

As for BW cards, its rough because both colours sorta do the same things without really enabling the things they are doing. I find adding efficient removal to gold slots helps control and value decks a lot but as I've said I hate that paradigm.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Zur is a really fun card, but he's three colors. And that really makes him hard to draft I think. You have to commit really early to those colors and hope you get all the cool utility enchantments that make him good. As my group rarely drafts the whole cube, it never seemed practical to run him. But YMMV.

my experience so far has been that my fixing is really really good, and that my drafters wanted more glaring build-arounds, so I'll see how it turns out! I mean if it just ends up as pick 15 some drafts in a row I can just cut it again! And if he goes in a crazy 3-0 deck I can put him on a watch list but at least then he got played.

As for BW cards, its rough because both colours sorta do the same things without really enabling the things they are doing. I find adding efficient removal to gold slots helps control and value decks a lot but as I've said I hate that paradigm.

I'm not quite following. What was your experience with gold removal? It sounds like youre a proponent for it but you also dont like it?

 

[Lucre]

I think I've written on here enough about how the decks with the most cards no one else wants tend to get access to premium removal /staples most. It's because Savannah Lions are great in your deck but table. Control decks don't have a lot of cards that do that except stuff like expensive wraths and the bad draw spells like careful consideration so I find generally the aggro decks have the fastest access to removal priority, midrange and value decks are a definite step below that, and ramp, control and tempo are last and tend to end up either making serious compromises or finding themselves with broken dreams and trying to put together a more creature based value deck.

It's really sad for control because they seriously rely on early trades and being able to make the most out of their spells to fight the fact creatures keep getting better and we have all gone to excellent lengths to make 2/1 decks very potent. Now the solution to this problem that keeps occuring rather naturally in people's environments is that midrange and control have an easier time playing 3 colours because they are prioritizing enablers over tempo and board position in the early turns and have less of their decks taken up by "necessary evil" cards, like say 2/1s or elves or delvers like the other archetypes do. So usually the control and midrange player can start speculating on what dual coloured removal spells will start floating around late in the packs (terminates, helixes, vindicates) and start scooping up fixing to have to make fewer compromises regarding card quality.

This phenomenon is especially prevelant the more tertiary creature deck bullshit you cube. The more anthems and unblockability instants and bad equipment and bad blockers you cube, the more the your control and midranged decks will be reaching to make their decks work.

Anyway what I was saying was dual coloured removal slots have a place in your cube, and kinda an important one, but it also sucks butt that this dynamic exists.

 

[Eric Chan]

i'm now convinced this is a real card, especially in fast lists with a lot of action on turn two, which describes a big chunk of cubes here. it's exactly what you want on the draw, so that you can interact with your opponent's Bitterblossom, Tarmogoyf, Thalia, Young Pyromancer, or whatever

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

Anyway what I was saying was dual coloured removal slots have a place in your cube, and kinda an important one, but it also sucks butt that this dynamic exists.

So preferably we would find a solution that involves control and other decks with less key-cards wheeling being able to table removal without it also getting snatched by aggro and midrange decks? Maybe there is a way to try to add more cards that aggro doesnt want, that fills the niches the other decks needs to fill (different kinds of removal primarily)? It feels almost contradictory since both aggro and the other decks will want cards that does something in the early game, but I'd imagine its hard not to have aggro just have the upper hand in picking those crucial cards either way you do it.

 

[Goldenpineapple]

so wait didnt you have any of your own stuff going on?

I feel like if someone draws all their expensive bounce guys and tricks and you're drawing a little light then it's kinda alright that they take a game or so off of you. To me complaining about having your land vensered is kinda like complaining about when someone curves out on you with a 1 a 2 and a 3. But like I get it, I'm really sick of having to play durdly 3 colour control decks all the time in cube if I wana play reactive, that sort of strategy can prey on archetypes if there is a lot of inequality going on.

My plays (on the draw obs) were something like
Tragic slip his enclave crytpoligist when he levels it
Night's whisper
Bone shredder his Edric
Pass with removal that I used on venser- my other cards were FTK and skinrender, one of which I tried to kill cloudskate with but got momentary'd.

I passed with two lands on turn five, so he got time to land threats and hold up tempo/countermagic. Felt like a non-game.

As for BW cards, its rough because both colours sorta do the same things without really enabling the things they are doing.

That's how I feel about the massive reanimate threats (rider, angel) and a lot of the guild's flashy spells (identity crisis, culling sun, obzed's aid). Black/white decks lack spice and are either mad boring death-and-taxes aggro, clunky interaction-based decks that work better in constructed (no offense anyone) or demand a third color to loot or something necessary to make the deck work.

And honestly I can't get my players to PLAY AGGRO and it's kinda infuriating. The aggro decks that DO crop up almost always 3-0 thanks to 4-5 other people at the table cutting the crap out of each other, but no one cares- they want to durdle and play with splashy cards. I need to make a timmy cube.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

How oppressive is this guy? I could imagine he's alright by the fact that he's online by turn 6 the earliest, maybe turn 5 off a rock, and you could just get run over before that? Seems like a good incentive to draft the bigger UR/x deck

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

So preferably we would find a solution that involves control and other decks with less key-cards wheeling being able to table removal without it also getting snatched by aggro and midrange decks? Maybe there is a way to try to add more cards that aggro doesnt want, that fills the niches the other decks needs to fill (different kinds of removal primarily)? It feels almost contradictory since both aggro and the other decks will want cards that does something in the early game, but I'd imagine its hard not to have aggro just have the upper hand in picking those crucial cards either way you do it.

You hit the nail on the head. If you experiment a bit with limited removal you can add a litte definition to the draft that can help address that problem. Cheap early blockers can also be nice.

My plays (on the draw obs) were something like
And honestly I can't get my players to PLAY AGGRO and it's kinda infuriating. The aggro decks that DO crop up almost always 3-0 thanks to 4-5 other people at the table cutting the crap out of each other, but no one cares- they want to durdle and play with splashy cards. I need to make a timmy cube.

I had that inclusive aggro thread a while back. I found the humans deck was pretty popular with the Timmy players, as thats more of an aggro-combo deck than a curve out aggro deck (if you run a bunch of gather the townsfolk). The humans also has the advantage of tying in with some Timmy bait fatties, like angelic overseer, which helped push them into the deck.

I think those types of players just need some spice.

 

[CML]

How oppressive is this guy? I could imagine he's alright by the fact that he's online by turn 6 the earliest, maybe turn 5 off a rock, and you could just get run over before that? Seems like a good incentive to draft the bigger UR/x deck

i think it's about right. obviously very powerful, but a fun draft-around and not that restrictive of an incentive to draft UR controlish.

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, I don't think he's oppressive, but having a card to draw people into the UR control archetype is appealing. This guy is better than Ral Zarek, at least.



I played in Khans draft recently and it was really bad. Does this function any differently in cube? I know some people have had some success, but I'm not sure what it would take to make this worth a slot.