General The Constructed thread

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Obviously the Threads can also be cast "for free" with one of the Zurs, so it's not really a UU spell most of the time. Also, you have eight one-drops that help with generating blue mana.

Yeah, I mean, I know, but cards can and do get stranded in hand. Not a great example, but back in Standard a local player insisted on jamming Phyrexian Obliterator as a 1x into his multicolor pod deck, and the amount of times it got stuck in his hand...

Anyways, this seems like a difficult thing to actually theorycraft. Nothing exposes a deck's weaknesses better than playtesting.
 

VibeBox

Contributor
speaking of treasure cruise....
i'm gonna play in this proxy vintage event next weekend i think: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46678.0

while i think the "best" deck choices i can make are doomsday followed by a time vault + burning wish for tendrils deck, the best choice of decks i'm not waaaaay to rusty to actually pilot even half well is this:


Stay Fayden

Walkers (4)
Tezz the Seeker
Dack Fayden

Bodies (3)
Goblin Welder
Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Artifacts (12)
Black Lotus
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Mox Ruby
Mox Pearl
Mox Opal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Time Vault
Voltaic Key

Instants (17)
Force of Will
Misdirection
Mental Misstep
Mystical Tutor
Spell Pierce
Ancestral Recall
Vampiric Tutor
Brainstorm
Hurkyl's Recall
Mana Drain
Thirst for Knowledge

Sorceries (11)
Ponder
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
Tinker
Treasure Cruise
Thoughtcast
Yawgmoth's Will
Toxic Deluge

Lands (14)
Bloodstained Mire
Flooded Strand
Volcanic Island
Underground Sea
Seat of the Synod
Tolarian Academy

SB: (15)
Grafdigger's Cage
Tormod's Crypt
Toxic Deluge
Goblin Welder
Hurkyl's Recall
Vandal Blast
Electrickery
Mindbreak Trap



currently the things im still pondering are:
sphinx of the steel wind vs inkwell leviathan vs wurmcoil engine vs sundering titan
i reeeally want lifelink, but menendian really seems on this inkwell plan i just dont know what im gonna do with this slot rn

i am not running lightning bolt. that can't be good?

do i have Too Much mana? dont think im gonna know until i start testing against delver/terra nova/jace control gauntlet


still gotta go over the eternal weekend results and see if im not accounting for anything major and new
basically i just think cruise is headed for the restricted list and dack fayden is just absurd rn so might as well try to mise some wins

any input is appreciated, though i dont know how many vintage peeps we got around here
 
That deck should have run digs instead of cruises imo.

Entering final prep time for gp san antonio. Still dunno what to play lol
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Ugh... Karma and Light of Day are both so unfair to black decks. What were they smoking at WotC when they designed those cards?

"Let's make the effects on the white-Gates-black cards really crippling. After all, white and black are iconic enemies!"
"Oh, I know! Let's put the effect on an enchantment too. Black has some problems removing enchantment after all, so that will be totally fair!"
"Sure, but we'll have to print the black one at a cheaper cost then, because white can deal with enchantments just fine."
"Yeah, that'll balance things out. Nice! Job well done gentlemen!"
 
My friend told me to listen to the most recent episode of constructed resources because he knew how much it would make me rage, and he knows I kinda like complaining about things but god almighty is it a different experience when you can't comment, you have no one to vent to and they just keep going on and on with their glibness and their wrongness.

Of course they were talking about past standard formats, how magic was unfun because of contrived control decks and how you couldn't play creature strategies till they finally got the power curve right in lorwyn. It's like these people have never had patriarch's bidding cast against them before or like lost 12 life to a giant solifuge, face down a turn 2 arc slogger or free 4/4 creatures. I got the feeling they only went by what won worlds tournaments too which seems sorta backward.
 

CML

Contributor
My friend told me to listen to the most recent episode of constructed resources because he knew how much it would make me rage, and he knows I kinda like complaining about things but god almighty is it a different experience when you can't comment, you have no one to vent to and they just keep going on and on with their glibness and their wrongness.

Of course they were talking about past standard formats, how magic was unfun because of contrived control decks and how you couldn't play creature strategies till they finally got the power curve right in lorwyn. It's like these people have never had patriarch's bidding cast against them before or like lost 12 life to a giant solifuge, face down a turn 2 arc slogger or free 4/4 creatures. I got the feeling they only went by what won worlds tournaments too which seems sorta backward.


yeah those people live here and i don't dislike them because they're nice but i don't like them either. not listening to their epically boring podcasts is a useful litmus test for whether or not we can be friends, though. like how aspie do you have to be to think their product is anything other than Marketing at its very purest?
 
GP San Antonio has been one of the most poorly run events I can remember while featuring one of the worst standard formats I can remember.
 
I haven't played Standard in a couple of weeks, but I was having fun with this format. It's way better than last year anyway.

That might change if I see the same two decks everywhere at my LGS, but that hasn't been the case thus far.
 
Decided to play abzan reanimator after all, figured I'd rather trust all the time spent tuning it and working on sideboard guidelines than lose mirror matches with stock abzan/mardu/jeskai.
Then I missed my 4th land with courser + double wayfinder 2 games in a row to get knocked out in round 5 (no byes). Waiting 40 minutes to an hour between rounds just to play a bunch of non-games was pretty awful!

Friend day 2'd with pretty much the same list before losing 5 die rolls in a row to miss cashing.

List felt good when I had mana to cast spells, even id that happened about twice in the main event.
 

VibeBox

Contributor
Lernin Stuff About Vintage:

i had never played vintage before, but decided to play in this event
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/18460#260370

at first i thought it would be a soft field with guaranteed payout, then i found out that the 6th, 9th, and 16th place finishers from eternal weekend were going to be there.
but i'd already put the deck together (hideous power proxies and all) and figured i might as well go for something to do anyway.
i had intended to keep notes and whatnot to write this up, but i had to focus on playing magic for the first time in like ever so yall get a super vague account no one asked for.


i decided to roll with sphinx of the steel wind because a.) i was already afraid of ancient grudge as i am a deck that needs metalcraft b.) i was overly afraid of the rise of young pyromancer (a recurring theme)
at the last minute i went with 4 mindbreak trap and dropped tormod's crypt for the more flexible pithing needle. i figured in a field of half ringers and half randos i'd feel better with needle than dredge hate. would never have brought in another welder or any electrickrys so glad i did it.

round one:
i keep a good hand but throw game one away. i try to slam down turn one dack fayden and he wins the counter fight.
he then proceeds to turn two tinker for blightsteel and i've already burnt my counters. gg
i barely remember game 2. i know i mulled to 6 and was on full titlt and basically just rolled over.
kinda like an injured football player coming back, i think i needed to get hit before i was really ready to play. i was loose as fuck the whole game, made bad choices, generally just way too rusty.
0-1
vintage lesson learned: patience is really important. if i had just passed and fought over the tinker i almost cant lose this game. also, blightsteel is apparently still what many people run. great news for dack fayden.

round 2:
i am dejected and fully expecting my prediction of "0-2 drop, hookah bar" to come to pass
my opponent is burning oath. game one he just has the turn one oath and i dont have FoW. it's at this point that it occurs to me that my deck really cant do much against a grisselbrand on board. in fact the only way i can win is by vault/keying before i die to it then win with tezzeret ultimate. i fail to do this in time and die.
games 2 and 3 i am packing 4 cage and 4 mindbreak and it's not super fair for him.
1-1

round 3:
workshop opponent has beautiful proxies. all printed out with full alt arts.
game 1 i win my only die roll of the day and i'm on the play. i put a dack fayden into play on turn one. he liked playing out the games but he should have saved himself the misery. workshops just cant beat dack unless they resolve an immediate revoker. he wasn't the build with revoker.
game 2 he has chalice and trinisphere for turn one. a chalice for one shuts off half my deck including my voltaic key. gg
game 3 he has no chalices so despite a couple lock peices he just runs out of cards and i start drawing a billion of them. i resolve tezz and go get a time vault. he makes me play it out after activating vault.
2-1
lessons learned: chalice of the vault is a pain in the aaaaaaaaaaaass (should be restricted, imo)
tezzeret is my backup win con if need be behind sphinx. this didnt occur to me until after my like 8th consecutive turn when i realize "oh, he also has an ultimate, i can quit waiting around for tinker and just kill him".
in talking to him after a mystery was solved for me. i kept wondering why people played ingot chewer instead of vandalblast. in addition to chalice (which i'd just been rudely awoken too) opponent explained that it was also a corner case sb card against dredge as the evoke can kill a bridge from below.

round 4
game one opponent draws almost literally all mana. i natural draw key vault so we both go about the awkward task of trying to sb with little to no idea what the other player's deck actually is.
game two i have possibly the best hand of the day. early dack fayden does his thing and sculpts me a hand that counters every relevant thing he tries to do to stop me while drawing a billion cards.
3-1
i find out after he actually had a p interesting workshop brew, but more importantly i was really sold on my deck after this. idk if anything other than a nut storm/doomsday draw could have beat that hand
lessons learned: better lucky than good. also, counterspells are so so crucial

round 5:
draw into top 8 so i can go get a sandwich. it was one of the least pleasant subways i've been in.

top 8:
i get paired with workshop. while i have a better workshop matchup than most because of my dack faydens, looking at the top 8 i would rather have played against literally anyone else. it's a really annoying deck to play against because sometimes they just have multiple lock pieces in the opener and it's hard to beat.
game 1 i shouldn't have kept the hand, but i wasn't really expecting to top 8 and must admit i was nervous with everyone standing around watching. there were basically only two cards in the hand so it didnt do a bunch.
he revokers my dack And my mox opal. i draw a few blanks before just dying to mishra's factories.
game 2 i resolve dack fayden and FoW revoker. a quick tinker mops up.
game 3 the hand was better but he had turn 1 chalice for 1 And chalice for zero, stranding all my mana in hand. i draw treasure cruise three turns in a row and it's just too much to overcome. it was the first time all day the nature of treasure cruise came back to bite me. i was usually able to just remove excess ones to FoW or misdirection
disappointing finish but oh well that's magic
got my money back for top 8ing anyway.
lessons learned: chalice needs to be restriced. it's so devastating and it makes being on the play so much more important. it's bad enough that sometimes they just have turn one trinisphere or multiple sphere of resistance, having 4 chalice makes it reeeeal hard to dodge bullets on the draw.


takeaways:
dack fayden is the best planeswalker in vintage. just brutal against anyone hoping to win with lodestone golems or blightsteels, but more importantly he fuels treasure cruises with ease. i cast 2 TC on the same turn multiple times. he also has the upside of improving your mystical/vampiric tutors since you can put them on top then draw the card same turn. he's just absurd all around.
TC should be restricted. with treasure cruise And thoughtcast plus dack sculpting my hand i was able to just win games with brute force. i always had more counters, more action, just more cards and it was enough to overcome my bad play most of the day. when you're gonna cast TC the looting from dack is not just sculpting your hand but also making downpayments on TC, virtually creating mana for later (not to mention setting up yawg will)
chalice of the void should be restricted. see above.
i had too many lands. between all the fast mana and the mana drains i sometimes just had excess mana and would rather draw anything but a land off the top.
vintage meta is slow to evolve. i only saw i think 2 young pyromancers all day despite it being the new, cheap, tier 1, and role flexible deck on the block. i was overly concerned with it as evident by maindeck toxic deluge and multiple sb cards specifically for it.
versatility of sb cards is so important. still working on the new sb, but i know it's keeping 4 cage and probably 3 mindbreak trap.
draw 7s are fairly bad actually imo. your opponent is drawing to so many live and impactful cheap if not free cards its just become a super dangerous proposition.

That deck should have run digs instead of cruises imo.
i was Strongly on the side of TC, but after watching champs and playing some magic for once i've kinda come around. DTT is probably better for some decks, and is possibly restriction worthy itself down the line.
that said we wont find out until TC gets restricted then many of the decks start turning to DTT and find it just fine, because TC is juuuuust nuts. my deck in particular thrives on building up a grip full of counters immediately after the initial scuffling, and enjoys the raw numbers to sculpt with dack.
while i think this deck will be fine when it has to run like 1 TC, 2 DTT, and a gush or something, i'm definitely running it back with TCs again next time (jan 3)

here's where im at with the deck now:
http://www.mtgpulse.com/showdeckbuilder/dxm80m42fc

Cruise City Vault

Walkers (4)
Tezz the Seeker
Dack Fayden

Bodies (3)
Goblin Welder
Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Artifacts (13)
Black Lotus
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Mox Ruby
Mox Opal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Sol Ring
Time Vault
Voltaic Key

Instants (18)
Force of Will
Misdirection
Mental Misstep
Mystical Tutor
Spell Pierce
Ancestral Recall
Vampiric Tutor
Brainstorm
Hurkyl's Recall
Mana Drain
Thirst for Knowledge

Sorceries (11)
Imperial Seal
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
Tinker
Treasure Cruise
Thoughtcast
Yawgmoth's Will

Lands (13)
Bloodstained Mire
Volcanic Island
Underground Sea
Seat of the Synod
Tolarian Academy

SB: (14)
Grafdigger's Cage
Spell Snare
Hurkyl's Recall
Ancient Grudge
Ingot Chewer
Mindbreak Trap



imperial seal for more nice dack fayden/tutor action, 4 mox opal cause it's so damn good. (TC likes when you tap one for mana then play another)
another thoughcast over the ponder.
might actually go with only 1 misdirection next time only because with so few pyromancers around im less worried about abrupt decay than i had been.
spell snare is super well positioned imo. the big three in tier 1 seem to be oath, pyromancer, and workshop, snare counters key cards in all those matchups and i definitely want to be able to bring it in for the dead cards in the matchup (AHEM lookin at you mental misstep against workshop).
trying to find maindeck room for :
1 Spell Snare OR a second Spell Pierce
a second hurkyl's recall
a fourth thoughtcast (thinking about cutting thirst for it, but thirst helps fuel treasure cruise)


vintage is more fun than i would have thought, and i gotta give it up to vintage super league for peaking my interest.
grabbed some cards for burning oath and doomsday as well so my options are open, but probably running this until they restrict TC. i call it Cruise City Vault and i think it's much better than the steel/angel city vault builds with all the draw sevens, and is actually well positioned.
still cant believe i'm playing constructed magic again, but thanks to Team Serious for running infi proxy events. it's obv the only way the format can thrive
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
For some reason watching VSL made me less interested in ever playing the format. Being able to see both hands simultaneously revealed how few meaningful decision points there really were in most games. Maybe that's just Magic in general.

It could also be the level of play, with relatively few "mistakes" made. When it clicks it's nice, but even with everyone playing pretty fair decks, most things seemed to boil down to "who drew better".
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Not to downplay the skill involved. And I watched all the matches, which is way more than I can say of other formats.

But there was still something a bit offputting.

I think part of it is that, when you watch someone stream you have a clear "hero", but I generally didn't have a rooting interest.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
For some reason watching VSL made me less interested in ever playing the format. Being able to see both hands simultaneously revealed how few meaningful decision points there really were in most games. Maybe that's just Magic in general.

It could also be the level of play, with relatively few "mistakes" made. When it clicks it's nice, but even with everyone playing pretty fair decks, most things seemed to boil down to "who drew better".

Thats funny, I had the exact same thoughts. It seemed like you could be way behind off of your opening 7 to a degree and frequency that I've never seen in any other format, with no set of decisions that the player could make to change that. Yet, you might still have 10 minutes or so of completly meaningless gameplay.

Also, it was really frustrating watching Stephen Menendian piloting a delver list in which he refused to ever cast delver.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Thats funny, I had the exact same thoughts. It seemed like you could be way behind off of your opening 7 to a degree and frequency that I've never seen in any other format, with no set of decisions that the player could make to change that. Yet, you might still have 10 minutes or so of completly meaningless gameplay.

Also, it was really frustrating watching Stephen Menendian piloting a delver list in which he refused to ever cast delver.

Yeah, it's not that the games ended on T1, but somehow they lacked some meaningful tension.

What was appealing about the presentation though was that the commentators didn't try to talk down to you or sell you on something. That was pretty refreshing.
 

CML

Contributor
For some reason watching VSL made me less interested in ever playing the format. Being able to see both hands simultaneously revealed how few meaningful decision points there really were in most games. Maybe that's just Magic in general.

It could also be the level of play, with relatively few "mistakes" made. When it clicks it's nice, but even with everyone playing pretty fair decks, most things seemed to boil down to "who drew better".


vintage is stupid

it might even be stupid if they restricted bazaar/workshop
 
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