General The Constructed thread

[VibeBox]

Being able to see both hands simultaneously revealed how few meaningful decision points there really were in most games.

strongly disagree
there was an over representation of merfolk which is quite linear, and a bunch of young pyromancer which can also be very straightforward. other than that though the format is full of nuanced decisions about sequencing.
i've never played a format with so many things to keep in mind. "can my opponent gush in response?" "am i opening myself up to a flusterstorm 2 for 1 here?" "do i need to play this now just to avoid losing it to a draw seven?"

Maybe that's just Magic in general.
...most things seemed to boil down to "who drew better".

i would say vintage lays bare a lot of ugly truths about magic as a game. there's several incredibly frustrating things about the way it works (mana, mulligans, 1 card per turn ect)
the games are swingier than non powered formats for sure, but the actual number of games lost or won to draws isn't actually as high compared to other formats as people seem to think (myself included before vsl).
i'll take it over a format like vintage that's soooo much more matchup dependent but has so many viable decks you can't hope to be actually prepared even with a slick sideboard. vintage puts more focus on deckbuilding imo and that appeals to me as a deck design specialist.

you could be way behind off of your opening 7 to a degree and frequency that I've never seen in any other format, with no set of decisions that the player could make to change that.

except focus on building the most consistent deck possible with the few open slots available to you. it's an interesting challenge imo.
i would also mention that two of the big complaints about the format actually don't jive. on the one hand is "well if your hand is just worse you just lose" and on the other is "the games are so swingy and it's just draw dependant".
are you reeeeally out of the game if you can draw ancestral or DT or TC off the top at any time? good players continue to make plays to put themselves in position to capitalize on fortuitous draws and it makes a big difference.

Also, it was really frustrating watching Stephen Menendian piloting a delver list in which he refused to ever cast delver.

he plays it as a hard control deck most of the time and it's almost certainly correct. those delvers are often more valuable as a FoW pitch than on board.
but even beyond that it's about choosing the context of your confrontations. are you fighting to protect a threat that Might Maybe get there, or are you fighting to seal up a dominant position?
pyromancer decks are incredibly versatile in what role to play from game to game, which is part of why menendian has been playing it with much success even before the arrival of TC.
i gotta give it up to him, menendian made me rethink the way i approached not just the matchup but the format as a whole.

the vsl finals of lsv vs menendian was fascinating to watch, and seeing lsv pull out some of those wins in games i was sure he was buried under card advantage in just blew me away.

 

[VibeBox]

there's a reason tons of top level players are coming out the woodwork to participate in the burgeoning vintage scene and calling it "magic's best format" (though i would obv say "magic's best Constructed format" rip extended). it's interesting, fun, has room to explore, rewards preparation in deck design as well as imaginative play.

that said, there's no way i'd be playing if not for embracing proxies. i've spent like 40 bucks to put together a deck i like and think is strong and there's no chance i'd spend money on power and whatnot even if i could afford to.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

he plays it as a hard control deck most of the time and it's almost certainly correct. those delvers are often more valuable as a FoW pitch than on board.
but even beyond that it's about choosing the context of your confrontations. are you fighting to protect a threat that Might Maybe get there, or are you fighting to seal up a dominant position?
pyromancer decks are incredibly versatile in what role to play from game to game, which is part of why menendian has been playing it with much success even before the arrival of TC.
i gotta give it up to him, menendian made me rethink the way i approached not just the matchup but the format as a whole.

Yeah, i've been following Steve about the Delver decks on his podcast and on the mana drain, and prior to the VSL I think I was sold on his theory.

However, when he was playing it as a hard control deck he ended up throwing games to LSV that seemed unlosable, and when he shifted to actually playing threats he suddenly started to win. I thought Chris' rant/critique was pretty spot on in that regard, and the actual gameplay seemed to prove it out as well.

I don't doubt that when you are playing it, it probably feels like you are making very nuanced decisions (thats certainly the sense I get when I watch LSV play vintage on MTGO); but during the VSL, when you can see both hands, those nuanced sequencing decisions didn't appear to actually be meaningful a larger portion of the time than I imagined. Anyways, I don't want to argue about it too much since I do like the format, I was just disappointed with the video content compared with legacy content.

 

[VibeBox]

However, when he was playing it as a hard control deck he ended up throwing games to LSV that seemed unlosable, and when he shifted to actually playing threats he suddenly started to win. I thought Chris' rant/critique was pretty spot on in that regard, and the actual gameplay seemed to prove it out as well.

that hadn't been my takeaway from watching it, but i'm actually planning on watching the recap stream steve posted so i'll certainly be reevaluating that element in particular now.

I don't doubt that when you are playing it, it probably feels like you are making very nuanced decisions (thats certainly the sense I get when I watch LSV play vintage on MTGO); but during the VSL, when you can see both hands, those nuanced sequencing decisions didn't appear to actually be meaningful a larger portion of the time than I imagined.

i think the thing is that i basically feel that way about magic in general. the importance of decisions vs draws in general isn't where most would like to believe imo, so i was pretty much ready to stop playing entirely.
i think i'm just more willing to accept the nature of it now so i kinda feel like if the variance is gonna be in effect im more willing than i used to be to trade a bit more for a wider range of possibilities. the increased focus on efficiency in deck building with minimal slots available appeals to what i liked most about the game so it makes it worth a whirl for me in ways that standard and modern just dont anymore.

Anyways, I don't want to argue about it too much since I do like the format, I was just disappointed with the video content compared with legacy content.

not trying to be argumentative. i appreciate your perspective and you certainly have valid points.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Also, bear in mind that seeing both hands gives you information the players don't have. A large part of the appeal of Magic is in the hidden information. Take that away and suddenly the game becomes a lot more straightforward.

 

[Jason Waddell]

I don't doubt that when you are playing it, it probably feels like you are making very nuanced decisions (thats certainly the sense I get when I watch LSV play vintage on MTGO); but during the VSL, when you can see both hands, those nuanced sequencing decisions didn't appear to actually be meaningful a larger portion of the time than I imagined. Anyways, I don't want to argue about it too much since I do like the format, I was just disappointed with the video content compared with legacy content.

Yeah, watching LSV play vintage to me is more entertaining than VSL. VSLSVSLSV

When you're playing you play around a lot of theoretical unknowns to give yourself small theoretical edges that might not be relevant in a given situation. When watching VSL there was a lot of "he will Ancestral, and then he will misdirect, and he will force, and he will force back, and then the game will be over." It's more that you had the feeling that the cards played themselves, which you don't get when you follow a pilot.

That said it's still my favorite format to watch, barring some techy modern brews.

 

[CML]

something fun for portland

3 underground sea
1 bayou
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
1 island
1 swamp

3 griselbrand
1 elesh norn, grand cenobite
1 jin-gitaxias, core augur
1 tidespout tyrant

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 entomb
4 careful study
4 hapless researcher
4 exhume
3 animate dead
3 reanimate
4 force of will
4 daze[/ci]
--
1 ashen rider
1 liliana of the veil
1 echoing truth
1 crippling fatigue
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 inkwell leviathan
1 sphinx of the steel wind
1 aetherling
2 pithing needle
2 massacre
3 abrupt decay

 

[Jason Waddell]

I like how part of your decklist is in a different font.

 

[James Stevenson]

CML, go to Powell's and let me know if you see that guy who makes flowers out of napkins in the cafe.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I just signed up for MTGO and have been messing around with pauper. Anyone here play the format? I know Onderzeeboot played a lot of peasent(?) back in the day.

Also, wow this client.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I just signed up for MTGO and have been messing around with pauper. Anyone here play the format? I know Onderzeeboot played a lot of peasent(?) back in the day.

Also, wow this client.

Huh, how did you know? I imagine Pauper is really fun now that blue got an Ancestral Recall

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Huh, how did you know? I imagine Pauper is really fun now that blue got an Ancestral Recall

I saw you mention it in a post a while back that you ran a league. I couldn't remember if it was pauper or peasent though.

I played the format for the first time last night in my first mtgo tournment (lets not talk about the results haha) but it was a lot of fun. I ran a mono U delver build which I netdecked, and than tried to update as best I could. I was trying to go with a more controlling delver build.

It was interesting though, because in the pre KTK lists, delver ran a gush engine, which is now competing with the treasure cruise engine. I ended up running 4 gush and 2 treasure cruise on the basis that I could gush earlier, but I have no idea if thats right.

How did you guys play gush decks in peasent? The card is banned in so many formats that I feel like I'm making a judgment call in the dark.

The other big controversy is whether I run brainstorm in a deck with no fetchlands.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Gush was typically played in a Faeries build, with either the Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top combo or Favorable Winds (and a single Force of Will or Spell Snare) as uncommons.

I actually ran a blog for four years. It's still online: http://peasantmagicgroningen.blogspot.nl/

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Like this?

Maarten Jacobs - Countertop Faeries
2nd place (12 points)

Creatures
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Pestermite
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top (U)
3 Counterbalance (U)
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
3 Snap
4 Gush

Lands
3 Desert
17 Island

Sideboard
SB: 4 Annul
SB: 4 Disrupt
SB: 3 Thornwind Faeries
SB: 4 Errant Ephemeron

Ok, thats awsome. Thats really similar to a mono U delver list. The core of the deck is traditionally: x4 delver, x4 cloud of faeries, x4 spellstutter sprite, and x4 ninja of the deep hours. Than thats backed up with some counters, snap, and spire golem We just don't have counter-top, obviously.

How do you think you would update that for a treasure cruise world? Would you cut gushes for cruises?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Looking at the list, I actually think Gush might be better. It's instant, it's "free", and you don't run enough cheap spells to make Cruise a one-mana spell often enough.

Spire Golem saw play in mono blue control shells over here as well, free 2/4 flyers are kinda good

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

So I was randomly googling for treasure cruise v. gush, and it turns out someone wrote a book on playing gush.

Oh Stephen Menendian...how you never fail to disappoint.

In restrospect, I think I horribly misbuilt and misplayed the deck. I was trying to be much too controlling with far too many draw sources, when I should have been focused more on spellstutter sprite and ninja of the deep hours. I really don't have the mana base to win counterwars, or the board control tools to really dominate in the late game.

I do like TC though, because it gives me a way to convert dead ninjas and faeries into resources, but gush being free seems more in line with a tempo game plan.

Maybe the deck I really want to be playing is UR control with delver hmmm....

Its a little funny that you guys played mana leak. I don't think i've found a single pauper list so far that runs the card, which seems to odd. The maindeck support counters that get played are deprive and exclude.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'm a deckbuilder at heart, and with so much design space there aren't a lot of decks I played more than once. Arcane Tide and Eldrazi Green are exceptions, because both decks are a blast to play, and with Dampen Thought as a common reprint, I think both decks should be translatable to Pauper (though I don't know which rarities are enforced and which cards are banned online). I'm pretty puffed with coming up with those decklists, and both were copied by other players. Arne even won a tournament with Arcane Tide. It's a shame you have to cut Stream and Evermind though. Both are really jankie but they just make the deck tick

Arne Haak - Arcane Tide
1st place (13 points)

Creatures

Spells
1 Gigadrowse
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Ponder
4 Reach Through Mists
1 Evermind (U)
2 Dampen Thought (U)
2 Stream of Consciousness (U)
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Psychic Puppetry
1 Oona's Grace

Lands
17 Island

Sideboard
SB: 4 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Disrupt
SB: 3 Gigadrowse
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus

Martijn Hennink - MGE
2nd place (12 points)

Creatures
4 Wall of Roots
2 Fierce Empath
3 Mold Shambler
4 Ulamog's Crusher
2 Artisan of Kozilek (U)

Spells
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Crop Rotation
4 Explore
3 Lightning Greaves (U)
2 Reap and Sow
4 Dosan's Oldest Chant

Lands
12 Forest
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower

Sideboard
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Quicksand
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Lignify
SB: 3 Nourish
SB: 2 Overgrown Battlement
SB: 1 Mold Shambler

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Here is the Banned list:

• Cloudpost
• Cranial Plating
• Empty the Warrens
• Frantic Search
• Grapeshot
• Invigorate
• Temporal Fissure

If it was printed as a common at some point, its legal.

Both those decks look super sweet. I don't think i've seen a pauper list abusing high tide, which seems odd. I love the tron list. I've always liked tron, but the pauper tron lists i've seen all look really awkward: basically 5 colors running a bunch of mana fixing eggs. Not having access to greaves hurts though.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I can imagine a High Tide list is hell on triggers? Maybe it's just too fidgety online, but the kill is very satisfying (though annoying to play against ).

MGE can add Walker of the Grove to its list, which was printed as a common in Modern Masters and a sick beatstick requiring two answers. Bounce is really bad against the main body as well. Expedition Map is very probably better than Crop Rotation in a field sporting Spellstutter Sprite. Scattershot Archer is awesome against faeries.

Sensible banlist by the way. This was our most recent banlist:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Brain Freeze
Cranial Plating (banned as of 07/11/2011)
Demonic Consultation (banned as of 14/11/2009)
Empty the Warrens (banned as of 07/03/2011)
Frantic Search (banned as of 29/06/2008)
Invigorate (banned as of 02/06/2011)
Jeweled Bird
Library of Alexandria
Mana Drain
Skullclamp
Sol Ring (banned as of 29/06/2008)
Strip Mine (banned as of 29/06/2008)
Tendrils of Agony (banned as of 29/06/2008)
Thopter Foundry (banned as of 07/11/2011)

5 out of 7 were on our banlist as well. Cloudpost has never reached the same level of dominance in Peasant as it did in Pauper, though it did win the most recent Peasant tournament in Ingolstadt: http://peasantmagicingolstadt.wordpress.com/top-8/7-peasant-grand-prix-102014/ (warning: in German!)

Awesome! Someone played a combo deck similar to a deck I played way back in 2010, except he only played one combo piece!



Combo off with:



Man, that deck was also a lot of fun! Doesn't translate to Pauper sadly, because you really need the Top.

Martijn Hennink - Golem Storm

Creatures
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Glaze Fiend
3 Trinket Mage
4 Chrome Steed
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer

Spells
4 Preordain
3 Sensei's Divining Top (U)
4 Springleaf Drum
1 Sylvok Lifestaff
2 Helm of Awakening (U)
4 Golem Foundry
4 Mistvein Borderpost

Lands
2 Evolving Wilds
8 Island
5 Swamp

Sideboard
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Welding Jar
SB: 1 Chromatic Star
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Turn Aside
SB: 3 Grapeshot
SB: 4 Stench of Decay

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Oddly enough, I just played against a list that tried to kill me with jace's erasure. His plan was to just ritual/metamorphosis out a bunch of card draw with erasure in play, but was vulnerable to sb annuls. I like your hightide version better. Is it soft to counter magic game 1 though?

This is how the pauper tron decks look btw

4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Towr
4 Urza's Cafeteria
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Quicksand
1 Khalni Garden
1 Remote Isle
2 Mountain
1 Island
1 Shimmering Grotto
4 Mulldrifter
4 Sea Gate Oracle
3 Fangren Marauder
1 Ulamog's Crusher
4 Expedition Map
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Firebolt
1 Compulsive Research
1 Flame Slash
2 Rolling Thunder

Sideboard
3 COP: Red
3 COP: Green
2 Serrated Arrows
2 Pyroblast
1 Arc Lightning
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame Slash
1 Fangren Marauder

If I modified your list (which I want to do), I think I would have to cut down on the number of crushers due to the lack of greaves and add Lignify maindeck to interact with kiln fiend and nivix cyclops. I like walker of the grove a bit better than crusher in the greaveless list since it clogs up the board and is resistant to spot removal. Having the one crusher though seems great to swing in against a stalled aggro board.

After reading the first chapter of stephen's excellent gush primer, I opted to cut TC completly from my delver list :eek:

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Lol

The stock tron list can gain obscene amounts of life with the Marauder o_O

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

So, I took a stab at converting your mono green tron list to pauper. I really like the idea of it so far, though I am trying it GU (which might be wrong). I can't really go with the crusher-gauntlets strategy that you ran, because, well no gauntlets. Crusher is pretty vulnerable otherwise, though maybe I need him for certain matchups. I love your decks consistancy though (my chief complaint with RUG tron) and the ability to use empath and crop rotation to grab utility pieces. Wall of roots is also amazing.

Here is what i've been testing:

Lands (24) 6 forest 1 haunted fengraf 1 khalni garden 4 thornwood falls 4 urza's mine 4 urza's tower 4 urza's powerplant Spells (25) 3 chromatic star 3 chromatic sphere 4 ancient stirings 4 crop rotation 3 snap 4 condescend 4 explore Creatures (11) 4 wall of roots 2 fierce empath 2 mold shambler 2 fangren marauder 1 maul splicer

Sideboard (15) 1 bojuka bog 1 quicksand 4 scattershot archer 2 lignify 3 serene heart 4 reap and sow (0)

I'm not sure about the U splash, but I really like snap. Great with tron, resets the ETB creatures, and provides a way to interact with the opposing board. My strategy is basically to put tron together (which this list does very smoothly) and than dominate the board by tutoring for either splicer or marauder. So far i've been playing against various aggro decks and dominating them in every way.

I am a little concerned about counters on my crop rotations, though i've not really been relying on crop rotations as much as I thought I would be to put together tron. Probably due to running so many eggs for marauder. How did your list fare against control?

There is a kiln fiend deck in the format that I think is going to be my worst matchup. U/R running fiend/cyclops/delver, cantrips, burn, shadow rift and apostle's blessing. Maybe I should be running snakeform in the board haha. Edit: Moment's peace gives them a lot of problems

 

[Onderzeeboot]

My list did fairly well against control, but the main reason for that were the two uncommon Eldrazi. They can counter the first Eldrazi, but it will come back once the Artisan comes around. If a Greaves slipped through their counterwall there's not much they can do after that. Hmm... maybe the uncommons are more important for the deck than I realized. Anyway, best way to test the Pauper matchup is to just sleeve both up and play some matches.

 

[MCMcEmcee]

RUG tron ended my affinity phase and made me play delver again lol

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

I haven't really played the affinity lists, though they look super sweet to play; i've just had an unhealthy obsession with tron decks since I first played Izzet tron and Triscuit tron back in Ravinca/time spiral standard lol.

I think I will try running more haunted fengraf in the main to help out with counters and we will see how that goes.