General The Constructed thread

CML

Contributor
i don't mind what they've done with modern at all -- i approve of most of it -- but DRS is a bad fit with the current power level of the format. also with no graveyard decks in the format prior to m14 except Mpod, I have no idea why they felt Scooze was necessary (though Mpod is pretty busted). i'd argue for:

ban -- DRS or
unban -- blossom, elf, dread return, grave-troll, preordain, seething song, nacatl

nacatl's banning is a blight on magic cards
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I'm sure one day we'll look back and laugh at the Nacatl banning the same way we did with the old Kird Ape bannings.
 
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CML

Contributor
You guys see the Modern GW D&T lists running around? One of our dudes loves Legacy D&T (the best deck in the format to scoop to a one-mana enchantment), something like

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1154977

I wanna play this deck, except for the non-printing of Hierarch in MMA is giving me a giant headache. Guess it'll be in the next Shard set with Exalted? Anyway that build seems like an abortion to me, Mindcensor is amazingly bad and Smiter is meh with only one color lord. I think we should shove in a couple Crucibles and go nuts with Tec Edge, Ghost Quarter, Canopy. I also wonder if the manly three-drop, Knight, would work in spite of the lack of forests / presence of Arbies.

P.S. Waddell edd all. -- our group's sugar daddy is rolling through Antwerp the week(?) after the PT for the GP, can you PM me contact deets to pass onto him?
 
My list is a just pretty straightforward White-weenie variant.

14 Plains
4 Horizon canopy
1 eiganjo castle
4 ghost quarter
4 path to exile
4 Aether vial
4 student of warfare
4 Leonin arbitter
4 Serra Avenger
4 Thalia
3 kitchen Finks
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Aven mindcensor
3 Flicker wisp
1 Ajani Originale
1 SoLaS
1 SoWaP
SB//
3 chalice of the void
2 tempest of light
2 kataki
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 SoFaI
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Aven Mindcensor

The list you linked is kind of what i'm going for atm. (just traded for the smiters and the 4x Noble Hierarch. i'll be running good old teeg somewhere in those 75 though.)
 
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CML

Contributor
i don't know what smiter and teeg do in that deck, the latter's absence makes sense to me except as a side option vs pod while the former is a universal inclusion that begs to beat the lili decks more, i guess?

my god, there's even an ajani goldmane
 
I enjoyed casting ajani far more than hero of bladehold (or any other creature so far, havent ran with wilt-lief liege yet). while the total lifeswing is "lower", he is summoning-sickness free, and leaves you with a defensive boardstate. also doesn't die to path to exile.
 
Standard is calling to me. Thank god I'm too busy with work x school.

Things that seem fun to me:

- Thoughtsieze + far // away seems like too much fun. Scry bounce too.
- Fact or fiction + red removal trying to find a way to win.
- Thoughtsieze and pyromancer seem like way too much fun. I wonder what to play to get the most streamlined aggressive token generation from that or most value from the tokens. I guess there's also 2/1s for 1 and and a 3/1 haste.
 

CML

Contributor
Kibler and a bunch of other dudes ('pros' in the parlance) were Tweeting their hatred of Thoughtseize the other day, and as Black is by far my least favorite color and I like Thoughtseize I was rather surprised (in b4 racist ban). 'Take anything' in Kibler's interpretation made things less interesting and choice-ful, though you could twist the argument the other way too.

Nykthos is really busted IMO get your sets now. Best card in the set
 
For reference, here's a blog post by BK: http://bmkgaming.com/thoughts-on-theros-and-thoughtseize/

I tend to agree with a lot of what he says. I think conditional removal ends up being more fun in the long run, and too many cards like Thoughtseize lead to strategic collapse. Thoughtseize is a premium answer card, it even answers answers like Kibler says. When you get too many trump cards, the collection of them can become the default best strategy.

I just don't think we are quite there in Modern, and not close in Standard. When Thoughtseize was printed, it saw some play in BG Elves (essentially just BG Rock), but otherwise in sideboards. In other words, it was hardly oppressive. I imagine it will be played more this time around due to reputation, but I don't think it will be the bugaboo that Snapcaster Mage was or Burning Tree Emissary. I think the 2 life will matter in Standard, and that red will be good enough to punish Thoughtseize.

In Modern, it's good for sure, and one of the best cards in Jund, but there just isn't the density of universal answers in Jund to make it unbeatable. I have never been to a local Modern tournament that Jund has won. From what I've seen, Jund usually loses to more fringe decks. Every card isn't Thoughtseize level utility, and there's always some gap. I theorize that Jund is better in more narrow metagames, but in the anything goes world of local tournaments, it's just hard to have an answer for everything.
 

CML

Contributor
i can't claim to be as good as kibler but i kinda like thoughtseize in modern. the life loss matters, and i think that's a good way to go about balancing a card that might be necessary.

in legacy it's very much the nuts
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
While I don't necessarily agree I love that there's discussion taking place on a design level rather than simply on a power-level level.
 
Thoughtseize can be a very frustrating card to play against. A lot of people when they complain about a card, that's the source of it, even if they claim it is because of power level reasons. When you're designing a game, you have to accept that frustration is an inevitable and healthy part of a competitive game. It is just a matter of weighing the card's potential frustration vs the benefit it gives to the game. Thoughtseize is definitely a fun and skill-testing card in my experience, but it isn't exceptionally so. I think I like it more than the average player and I don't love it. The thing is that if you try to design a game as anti-frustration as possible you end up with a game like Street Fighter 4 where a lot of the previously fun things were watered down, so now just things that were merely boring are just as frustrating. As you have to pick and choose which line of frustration to take because something always will be.

There are ways to fight a thoughtseize heavy metagame. Admittedly, not many. But the card generally is much weaker against fast aggro, not just because of the life loss but also because when your opponent's hand is filled with hasty 2/2s, taking one of them isn't as important as taking the central card of your opponents deck because there is no central card. Also, the information you gain by seeing your opponent's hand is nowhere near as important as when fighting other matchups, unless you just got warned about a quadruple bolt coming or something out of the ordinary like that.

I'm going to go off on a tangent here:
Thoughtseize is related to a pretty classic problem in competitive game design, where someone designs a character in a fighting game or a race in an rts that has a huge huge glaring weakness, so they give that character something absolutely insane to compensate. In this case, I'm talking about black's inability to deal with enchantments and artifacts while printing black cards in an enchantment heavy block. 99% of the time this leads to characters that are either absolutely awful or absolutely off-the-wall bonkers. And 99% of the time they have to give the character frustrating mechanics to function at all. Sometimes elements like this can be a lot of fun, and a few of them is important to give a game its spice, but a designer has to be very careful about it. And if you can think throughout the history of black, the majority of the time it has either been trash or amazing, very rarely in the middle ground (correct me if I'm wrong on this).
A good example of this is Zangief in pretty much every Capcom fighting game he is in.
This is one of the absolute worst matchups in this game:
It is heavily in sagat's favor.
 

CML

Contributor
While I don't necessarily agree I love that there's discussion taking place on a design level rather than simply on a power-level level.


agreed, though i see at least some of this on twitter. it's a nice intermediate step between power-level assessments and talking about the culture of the game ...

the opposite of this is, of course, 'casual' EDH players talking about power level
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I think Thoughtseize is probably a good card to have in Modern, on balance. It actually makes it easier to allow a diversity of decks in the format: your fair deck now has a way to handle Karn Liberated and Desperate Ritual and Cryptic Command etc. without spreading itself too thin, so the format doesn't just devolve into decks doing their own thing and playing past each other instead of against each other. You could probably make a similar argument for Abrupt Decay. The problem is that BGx has not only the most efficient all-purpose answers in those two cards, but also a card that's far more oppressive (Deathrite Shaman), a very strong planeswalker that requires creatures to be able to pass the Jace/FTK test (Liliana), as well as the format's best creatures (Bob, Goyf, Scavenging Ooze). As a result, the best deck is something that's very hard to attack: the tool are there to stop you going over the top of it, but any attempt to engage it in a fair fight ends in your cards being outclassed. The decks that try to do this end up looking little better than Jund themselves - Voice of Resurgence into Loxodon Smiter into Wilt-Leaf Liege might *work* but it's nothing to get excited about.

Now, compare this to the format that most resembles Modern - the Mirrodin-onwards Extended format for the San Juan PTQ season in 2010. One of the nominal best decks, Zoo, resembled Jund in one sense - it was the most cost-effective removal spells backing up brutally fast creatures - but it was far more customizable than Jund is. The PT was won by Big Zoo with Punishing Fire, Green Sun's Zenith, and Baneslayer Angel; before long we had Boom/Bust + BBE Zoo, hyperaggro Zoo with Steppe Lynx, Blood Moon Zoo, Saitou's midrange Zoo list touching blue for Negate/Bant Charm, and some more obscure variants like Scapeshift Zoo. Zoo had a lot of strong cards but was much easier to attack than Jund is.

The other 'best deck', DDT, had more raw power than Jund - Jund can't kill you on turn 3 through disruption - but because it strength derived from the synergy between various interlocking pieces, decks lower down the food chain could compete with it by disrupting these combos. Did your Faeries deck not care about Marit Lage? All you had to do was pack Extirpate or Leyline for Thopter Foundry and you were good to go. Did your Elves deck not care about the slow inevitability of Thopter Foundry but worry about Dark Depths? You could sideboard Ghost Quarter and make a bad matchup passable enough to win a Grand Prix. Meanwhile, there was a variety of answers that hit both combos: Spell Snare, Celestial Purge, Bant Charm, Damping Matrix, Night of Souls' Betrayal, and so on. Nevertheless, you could adapt your DDT deck to stay one step ahead of the metagame and still walk into a tournament feeling confident.

Despite all of that, the current Modern format is reflective of a narrow conservatism and lack of vision. Jitte being banned is absolutely laughable. Thopter Foundry is more than safe in a format that now has Abrupt Decay, Rest in Peace, and Stony Silence, and a bunch of combo decks that couldn't care less about it. Green Sun's Zenith is eminently fair and would reward customization rather than the homogeneity we see in the BG decks. Ancestral Vision, as Zvi said in an article a while ago, is basically the Platonic ideal of a 'turn 4 format' card. Faeries is obnoxious but Bitterblossom is fine. Punishing Fire was't oppressive before and certainly wouldn't be now. Bloodbraid Elf and Wild Nacatl can come off for sure. Cloudpost is borderline, Stoneforge Mystic even more so, but I think both would ultimately be ok. It's not just the people making the banned/restricted decisions who are at fault here; there are some taken seriously in the community who actually want to ban Birthing Pod! Modern could be so much better, but I doubt it ever will be.
 
People really like retreating to the design level when trying to justify their point. It's a good nebulous place to make flimsy "feels right" arguments from.

Im not trying to criticize your enthusiasm, I actually sorta like when arguments move into sorta insincere discussions of design, I like that it at least starts people down the road of considering intent and ramifications but It's pretty rare that you get people discussing design, it's more they like to make statements about it as either a rhetorical weapon or life preserver when talking about a thing they are passionate about on the innernet (or they just like to always have a criticism).


I think they just keep making red deeper. It really looks like it has a lot of interesting stuff going on in this environment. I wonder how many decks will feel like they want to be playing at least 3 thoughtsieze.
 

VibeBox

Contributor
I think Thoughtseize is probably a good card to have in Modern, on balance. It actually makes it easier to allow a diversity of decks in the format:
i'd argue the exact opposite actually. i hate having thoughtseize around as i feel it's just one more of these abrupt decay type catch alls that keep more interesting decks that rely on individual cards like pyrimancer's ascension from ever having a chance to become a meta force.


Now, compare this to the format that most resembles Modern - the Mirrodin-onwards Extended format for the San Juan PTQ season in 2010. One of the nominal best decks, Zoo, resembled Jund in one sense - it was the most cost-effective removal spells backing up brutally fast creatures - but it was far more customizable than Jund is. The PT was won by Big Zoo with Punishing Fire, Green Sun's Zenith, and Baneslayer Angel; before long we had Boom/Bust + BBE Zoo, hyperaggro Zoo with Steppe Lynx, Blood Moon Zoo, Saitou's midrange Zoo list touching blue for Negate/Bant Charm, and some more obscure variants like Scapeshift Zoo. Zoo had a lot of strong cards but was much easier to attack than Jund is.

The other 'best deck', DDT, had more raw power than Jund - Jund can't kill you on turn 3 through disruption - but because it strength derived from the synergy between various interlocking pieces, decks lower down the food chain could compete with it by disrupting these combos. Did your Faeries deck not care about Marit Lage? All you had to do was pack Extirpate or Leyline for Thopter Foundry and you were good to go. Did your Elves deck not care about the slow inevitability of Thopter Foundry but worry about Dark Depths? You could sideboard Ghost Quarter and make a bad matchup passable enough to win a Grand Prix. Meanwhile, there was a variety of answers that hit both combos: Spell Snare, Celestial Purge, Bant Charm, Damping Matrix, Night of Souls' Betrayal, and so on. Nevertheless, you could adapt your DDT deck to stay one step ahead of the metagame and still walk into a tournament feeling confident.
rip extended
what a format that was. simply beautiful.

Despite all of that, the current Modern format is reflective of a narrow conservatism and lack of vision.
amen

Jitte being banned is absolutely laughable.
i'd disagree. the new world of magic is all about creatures, and creature heavy metas turn into jitte battles quickly and it gets extremely tiresome.
somewhat less of an issue with the stupid new legendary rules, but it's still one of the least offensive members of the banned list as of now.

Thopter Foundry is more than safe in a format that now has Abrupt Decay, Rest in Peace, and Stony Silence, and a bunch of combo decks that couldn't care less about it.
amen

Green Sun's Zenith is eminently fair and would reward customization rather than the homogeneity we see in the BG decks.
disagree. in fact i think it being unbanned would only result in ~5 slots in jund being standardized across the board. dryad arbors abound.

Ancestral Vision, as Zvi said in an article a while ago, is basically the Platonic ideal of a 'turn 4 format' card.
it's almost as if the "turn 4" schtick is a hollow excuse used as a thin veil for ideologically inspired shit-tacular format crafting.

Faeries is obnoxious but Bitterblossom is fine.
THE OPPOSITE! fuck bitterblossom forever

Punishing Fire was't oppressive before and certainly wouldn't be now. Bloodbraid Elf and Wild Nacatl can come off for sure. Cloudpost is borderline, Stoneforge Mystic even more so, but I think both would ultimately be ok.
i'd call stoneforge and bbe actual legit bans.
i will never understand people's constant defense of wild nacatl. "yeah, 3/3s for 1 are fine, why wouldn't we want that around?" no bigger poster child for how far removed the game has become from a sane balance.
the rest should definitely be unbanned yeah.



It's not just the people making the banned/restricted decisions who are at fault here; there are some taken seriously in the community who actually want to ban Birthing Pod! Modern could be so much better, but I doubt it ever will be.
i'd call it about 45% fault to those in charge of the banned list. roughly 20% on the playerbase all but giving up on real innovation in modern (though you could say that's partially because anything successful is in danger of being banned anyway so what's the point) 35% just on the absurdity of cards being printed and all the "easy answers" to be had keeping interesting decks out of viability.
 

VibeBox

Contributor
ideal modern banned list:

mental misstep
bitterblossom
jace, tms
wild nacatl
sdt (half on time concerns, half on threat of counterbalance ever gaining prominence)
jitte
Deathrite Shaman

maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe....blazing shoal
 

VibeBox

Contributor
if i'm ever tempted to brew a modern list my enthusiasm is drained immediately when i remember "oh yeah, chrome mox is banned for no good raisin at all"
 

CML

Contributor
"Punishing Fire was't oppressive before and certainly wouldn't be now."

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/worlds11/topmod

i dunno i kinda like playing with small dudes. beyond that i agree with most of what you said and espouse wholesale todd anderson's vision of reprinting FoW, unbanning cantrips and everything else etc

that being said modern is pretty fun as is too and i don't mind what they've done with it too much. i've said this before, but as cube designers we shouldn't mind a nice flattened power curve, even if they've gone quite too far
 
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